Now THAT's an argumentOriginally Posted by SerbMarko
you know what your talking about Tunen, no doubt about it.. but your way too by the book if you ask me.. almost like all books vs all hands on.. your all books.. ive seen some of your youtube videos.. you know what your doing.. but that doesnt mean others are wrong.Originally Posted by Tunen
Disclaimer: This is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape, or form encourage use nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner. The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes and shall not take the place of qualified medical advice and should not be construed as an endorsement or recommendation for any illegal activity.
One last time I will say I do admire your physique and respect your opinion, but I disagree.
If I experience something, should I disregard it as a myth because you have not experienced it or some guy with a few letters after his name says "NO THAT CAN'T HAPPEN!! Sorry but theories of professional "no it alls" have been proven wrong before, remember the earth was supposed to be flat once Just the same as every opinion on training has a counter. Like full range of motion "say some" and "partial rep range" say others.
Who is my God, I'm not religious. I'm not mocking science till you produce the document, I'm actually not mocking anything Tunen, I even complemented you on your physique, I'm just disagreeing with you without at other people views or experiences.Originally Posted by Tunen
So now that it has been pointed out that massage professionals and Milos have said basically what I'm getting at is that proof enough.....oh you would want the DVD names as the source
Jay Cutlers one was "Ripped to Shreds" and Milos's one was his two DVD set can't remember name but could look in my collection if you really want to know.
Mate I don't want to argue, you have your theory I have mine, all I know is I'll be around 90kg (198lbs) at 5'7 in a TESTED comp by the end of this year which isn't too bad I think, so you stick with what you believe and I'll stick with what works
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"The Crow That Mimics The Cormarant Always Drowns"- Japanese Proverb
You saw his references to religion and took it as an attack on it (and yes, I realize Tunen is not religious at all and has been on the offensive before). All he's saying is that personal beliefs and mythology can't hold a candle to science when it comes to strength training and hypertrophy. To me it seems that those claiming DBs give them better separation and fullness really need to step back and do some more definitive research and testing (even if it's amongst themselves) before making claims that disagree with numerous scientifically controlled experiments. There are so many factors that can occur when a person is self-experimenting over the course of something like 6 months; a test of one person isn't reliable as is (here come the "oh, it worked for me" arguments) and without any type of detailed protocol there are innumerable variables that will skew the results.Originally Posted by SerbMarko
As for some of the comments Pumba has made trying to prove his theories, things like, "Remember, the Earth was flat once" is irrelevant because that was something that could not be observed during that time while changes in muscle fibers on a cellular level can. Sighting Milos doesn't really impress me either. Unlike any other sport, bodybuilding seems unwilling to make a shift from initial, theoretical practices to one that's more scientifically grounded (except when it comes to drugs, and to an extent nutrition), thus selling many of its participants short. All other sports have used advances in scientific findings to better performance yet we only develop supplements, drugs, and fancy pressing machines that aren't nearly as beneficial as basic exercises. This whole "everyone's different" phase has to die out sometimes soon. Yes, we are all different but that doesn't mean completely different training approaches based on 40 year old assumptions are correct either.
Serb>> I actually mistook PUMBA for BigBen My bad! Generally I was thinking mostly about "belief" as opposed to science though.
PUMBA>> Milos Sarcev, Jay Cutler, And Ronnie Coleman DVDs are just not valid references in my book. This is where we differ in opponion.
You having trained with pros doesn't logically verify anything either IMO. Again, we differ in oppinion ;)
In regard to the using, you've used and I haven't. You have attained lots of mass through chemically enhancing your proteine synthesis which is a major short-cut. You might never have attained that kind of mass naturally dude. So your being heavier than me still doesn't make you more right. You entering a tested competition really doesn't change anything... You're still not natural and can't really compare yourself to clean athletes. You made a choice once and that's it. Each to his own. I'm not against using per se as I love bodybuilding. Just to make that clear
And how can you say I'm ALL books? I've trained in lots of different ways throughout the years and have found that the scientifically verified principles bring me far better gains than the Weider principles or FLEX dogma in general.
Line>> I do don't I
Agreed. LOL at the n=1 statement.Originally Posted by Line + Jorn
Actually interestingly enough they could. Astronomers, navigators, etc all had worked out rough estimates of the actual circumference of the Earth with reasonable accuracy. This was back before the advent of "the world is flat" religious dogma that had tourturous burnings of those who went against it.Originally Posted by Line
You're such a nerdOriginally Posted by tim290280
Actually I recall a bit of what you're saying. My dad was a earth science teacher (dirt and air he called it) and he did lecture on early astronomers and such.
The issue became less about growth and more about how a greater ROM or the versatility of DBs allows for greater muscle separation and fullness which there is no merit to.Originally Posted by Glex
BB: Greater ROM (normal grip), higher loading, greater growth potential, less "natural" movement, harder to activily recruit pectoralis in anterior deltoid dominant lifters, easier to manage heavier weights.Originally Posted by Glex
DB: Shorter ROM (except in wide grips, which is potential harmfull to the shoulder capsule), lower loading, smaller growth potential, better involvement of proprioception, better activation of stabilising muscles, easier to recruit pectorialis, allows for more "natural" movement patterns, harder to manage heavier weights.
These are short lists.
Ultimately BB's are superior, but shouldn't be used exclusively year round. Certain cycles should be encouraging the use of DB's, especially when not training for maximum strength.
TUNEN- as for your theory on my mass coming from artificial sources, sorry bro, I have been stocky and big since age 13, I was benching 200lbs at age 16-17 and weighed around 85kg at 17 for my first amatuar title fight in boxing and by 21 weighed 92kg for my first kickboxing fight.Originally Posted by Line
Yes I did 2 cycles of Deca with a bit of Test to get over some Rugby Union injuries (dislocated shoulder and busted up right knee) which I was put on by a coach and finished with absolutaly "NO PCT" I knew nothing about gear !!!
I then didn't touch weights again till 2005 after spending a week in hospital after being hurt in a work place incident (got cracked by a guy with a fire extinguisher) I have slowly built my self up bigger then ever with heavy weights, good rest and shit loads of food.
So it ain't gear bro, the way I train works for me and has worked with every training partner I have had. You can try and detract from my achievement by crying foul cause I once cycled back in 1999, but that is probably the most pathetic and ignorant statement I have read yet.
The comp I am entering, is with the NEW WNBF who test via Urine, or polygraph and test "EVERY" athlete, I think this speaks volumes.
At the end of the day I am not the one who claimed everyone who believes point A is rediculous, which is basically what you and a few others have done.
I simply answered the poll, and said "Hey this is what I believe worked for me"!
I find it nothing more then concieted behaviour if any of you down grade some one elses experience and achievement just because your books say it is not possible, there have been alot of these so called experts that years later have been proven totally wrong.
....and all this talk about studies and proven theories. Where are they, I have heard both you and Line talk about studies and produced no sources...:edunno: No need to post them for my benefit
Anyway you guys do what you want and good luck with it, and I'll see how I go with my way.
JORNT: Your nothing to me but a pencil neck, put up or shut.
Trusting your knowledge on training would be like useing an accountant that sleeps on a park bench. That's right pointless
Why would anyone listen to some little boy that reads alot.
Jerry Springer Comment for the Day- If I am so wrong why is the poll count 23 - 10 at present in my favour. Take care of yourself.....and each other.