This is absurd. I can tell you why you're wrong but won't bother because I could probably write 8 paragraphs from these two sentences alone (and will if you'd like).Originally Posted by d.capodiferro
Problem #2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Victor placing ahead of either Jay or Phil, provided he's better than them on that given day. At the 2007 AC, Vic was better than Heath and won. At the 2007 Mr. O, Vic was better and should have won. I'm as curious as everyone else to see how this three ring circus (four or five if you count Wolf and Dex) plays out at this year's O but I feel that Victor versus Phil is the most intriguing match-up as he's clearly already bested Cutler.
Problem #3: Calm down.
Hyperbole = best. thing. ever.Originally Posted by Lionheart
2004 Olympia (way too puffy), 2004 AC (a travesty).
I agree with this for the most part but I wish you wouldn't still subtextually be making an effort to boost Jay a bit in your post. There are no areas in which Jay looks sharper than Phil, save maybe quad separation, but in this instance it's a matter of genetic shape and there are much better indicators we can look at. That being said, there's nothing wrong, of course, with genetics playing a substantial role in bodybuilding as I'm always the first one to defend them, especially in the case of muscular shape and the emphasis that should be put on it but there seems to be a clear dichotomy of the Cutler defense mechanisms: using size to defend his upper body and separation to defend the lower.Originally Posted by mvsf1
I agree with this.Originally Posted by mvsf1
You know it's not all good weight and Heath more than held his own against Gustavo who the judges apparently don't have much of a problem with in terms of the mass department. Back at the 2004 Olympia and throughout the 2005 season Baddel was considered a freak and on his way to becoming, if not already, a mass monster. Everyone (judges included) seems to forget that you don't have to weigh 275+ pounds to be Mr. Olympia. I don't understand why people blindly defend mass monsters winning shows when it hurts the sport in the long run, and not just in terms of exposure, which just won't happen either way.Originally Posted by Bulkboy
This deservative sentiment is pretty worthless and shouldn't hold any weight in sport.Originally Posted by Bulkboy
I know Dex has said that's what his weight has been but I highly doubt it. I think Lonnie Teper has said on several occasions that Dex weighs less than he says but he remains quite illusory nonetheless. I only saw him briefly in person at the AC Expo last year and out side of his traps he wasn't outstandingly big. It's quite the opposite look on stage though.
Anyway, as you said we can call it genetic issues, but (and I'll said it once more) Heath's structure is the best since early Wheeler, but mass still fills more jugdes eyes than aesthethics.
I guess this only quasi-dodges the issue I was speaking about. There's clearly a balance issue between Jay's upper and lower body and without seeing them on stage together I don't wouldn't say that it's fair to give Jay the blatant go-ahead in the mass department. Larger? Probably, but it may be closer than one would think and if that's the case the only logical (I know IFBB judging isn't logical) thing to do would be to penalize in terms of proportion and actually concede some ground to the aesthetic guys because the most prominently displayed muscle groups challenge that of a mass monster.Originally Posted by mvsf1
Right.Originally Posted by mvsf1
I realize you were talking about those who favor aesthetics but besides overly backtracking towards the "judging criteria" defense you're speaking in definitives without any offering supporting points. Also, there were far more reasons than size that Ronnie was better than Jay or Flex Wheeler. Judges typically award "freaky" bodyparts on an otherwise balanced physique. Ronnie was the king of this in terms of being able to hold mass and conditioning while excelling in shapely musculature department in terms of back, hamstrings, glutes, chest, biceps, shoulders, traps.Originally Posted by d.capodiferro
If we're going to speak simply, yes, Jay wins because he's bigger based on the way shows, particularly the Olympia, are currently judged. That doesn't necessarily make it right though and falling into those sort of traps will only lead the sport into further trouble down the road.