Cutting Down (Diet)

Mach · Jan 21, 2009

Hey guys/girls...

I'm 6"1 about 230LBS. Trying to get down to 200LBS.

This is my diet usually everyday with no cheat day.

8am-10am Morning: 8 egg whites 2 regular eggs with 4 peices of whole wheat bread (toasted pretty good)

12(noon): 44grams of protein (shake) 1/4 cup of natural almonds/salad.

2pm-4pm: Chicken/2cups of rice. salad with 1Table spoon of vinegar oil.

6PM (workout) water water water

7:30-8pm: (66g protein PWO) with 1 slice of whole wheat bread.

830pm: 2 pieces of Salmon with salad with no dressing.

11pm: 44g protein with 1/4 cup of natural almonds

I get in about 8-12 bottles of (591ml bottles) a day. You know, the regular size water bottles.
Also, forgot to add this: I do get in fruits and Veggies throughout the day.

This is not how my day goes everyday, but it's usually something like this. I've been on this routine since Jan 1st.

Let me know if you have any suggestions or if i'm doing something wrong.

Thanks.

tim290280 · Jan 22, 2009

Refer to my comments in the other diet thread posted today.

Mach · Jan 22, 2009

Is this the post?

tim290280 said:
Half your meals are shakes. Eat real food instead. Shakes are only really useful around training (pre and post).

You only have 1 serve of vegetables for the day. You need 5x that at least. You also need more fibre. You also lack any form of fruit.

Protein is no where near as important as people think. You need to get your macro ratio sorted so that you get a balance of foods.

Aside from the eggs I see no healthy fats, especially omega 3's.

I get in about 2 shakes a day. yes, I don't eat a lot of veggies and a lot of fruit because I can't afford to be going shopping every 3 days just to keep up with eating a lot of fruits/veggies.

I think that's this diet is clean, but telling me that I take too many shakes is not helping me.

Thanks.

Ironslave · Jan 22, 2009

Looks good dude... I'd opt for oatmeal instead of the toast in the morning. I'd also recommend some sesamin/omega 3- fatty acids. Drink white tea (or green) throughout the day, and get in some regular cardio and you would be well on track.

You could eventually tinker with a few other things, try some supplements here or there, but you have a great foundation. Stick with it, don't expect results to come overnight, but they will come.

The_KM · Jan 22, 2009

I agree, nice foundation bro.

The only thing I suggest you change is your post workout meal. Look into waxy maize starch, dextrose or other glycogen replenishment products. Also, if you like the taste of salad dressing, you might want to check out "Salad Spritzers" made by Wish-Bone. You can find them in the frozen section of your grocery store, or for some, the refrigerated.

Last, I'd remove some of the fat from your meals, but not all. Calories can quickly accumulate if you're abstracted from the general consensus :tiphat:

tim290280 · Jan 22, 2009

Mach said:
Is this the post?

I get in about 2 shakes a day. yes, I don't eat a lot of veggies and a lot of fruit because I can't afford to be going shopping every 3 days just to keep up with eating a lot of fruits/veggies.

I think that's this diet is clean, but telling me that I take too many shakes is not helping me.

Thanks.

I'll be brief as I'm posting from work and am busy.

Yes that was the post.

Fruits and Veges: how can you afford not to?? Without them you don't get adequate nutrition or fibre and you will have an acidic diet (which has been shown to cause all sorts of health problems). Even snap frozen vege packages are a good option (as long as no additives are involved). And I don't know how you store food but it should last longer than 3 days.

Diets can be clean without half your diet being a protein shake. Shakes are a SUPPLEMENT not a cornerstone. Their peak effectiveness is pre and post workout, any other time should ideally be real food. Protein is no where near as important as people make out, as you only need 1.2-1.6 g/kg. So if you are wanting to weigh 90kg (200lb) then you would only need 145g of protein a day, rest will be burned as energy or stored as fat (at your current weight you'd need 167g).

So the most important thing to do is figure out calories needed, total calories of this diet and the macro ratios. At a guess I'd say you have about double the amount of protein you need, which will be limiting your carbs and healthy fats intake. This is both more expensive way to eat and nutritionally unbalanced.

The_KM · Jan 22, 2009

A bit more protein on a diet won't hurt. The chances of the protein being stored as fat is minimal, and he'll need to reconstitute protein subjected to gluconeogenesis.

Duality · Jan 22, 2009

Originally posted by Tim290280
Fruits and Veges: how can you afford not to?? Without them you don't get adequate nutrition or fibre and you will have an acidic diet (which has been shown to cause all sorts of health problems). Even snap frozen vege packages are a good option (as long as no additives are involved). And I don't know how you store food but it should last longer than 3 days.

i'm confused why you're recommending fruit. fruit for all intensive purposes is just natural candy with high sugar that will do no one any good in a diet looking to get shredded. if you're looking for supplemental fiber, then just supplement it, throw in a multi and some vitamin C and there's not much else fruit brings to the table besides too much sugar that is not beneficial to a diet of fat loss.

TJ · Jan 22, 2009

Duality said:
i'm confused why you're recommending fruit. fruit for all intensive purposes is just natural candy with high sugar that will do no one any good in a diet looking to get shredded. if you're looking for supplemental fiber, then just supplement it, throw in a multi and some vitamin C and there's not much else fruit brings to the table besides too much sugar that is not beneficial to a diet of fat loss.

You can get lean eating fruit because the sugar is fructose and doesn't drastically increase insulin levels like man made sugar. Plus, most fruits have a low GI because of all the fiber. Fruits are great for vitamins, minerals and a plethora of health beneifts, too.

EDIT: Tim's post was right on.

KM - is there a study that specifically states that protein will not be stored as fat? Just curious, because there have been studies that state "a calorie is a calorie."

tim290280 · Jan 22, 2009

^^ Plus the actual amounts of fructose in fruit is actually rather low. The fruit ends up being a good source of nutrients and vitamins. You'd have to eat a lot of fruit and veges (non starchy) to ever get fat or halt your leaning down. Also I never said eat shitloads of fruit, the couple of pieces of fruit a day you need are not going to be a problem (unless you consume a lot of sugared, HFCS products).

Duality said:
i'm confused why you're recommending fruit. fruit for all intensive purposes is just natural candy with high sugar that will do no one any good in a diet looking to get shredded. if you're looking for supplemental fiber, then just supplement it, throw in a multi and some vitamin C and there's not much else fruit brings to the table besides too much sugar that is not beneficial to a diet of fat loss.

And I'm sorry but "supplement fibre"?? Supplement vitamins???? Why bother having food at all? We'll just consume processed supplements........ The reason we don't is that there are all sorts of co-factors and enzymes present in food that we do not obtain from any supplements. Have a read about the fact that vitamin C is not acutally ascorbic acid but is a larger molecule that has other elements. We actually are best served by consuming it as the more complex molecule to get teh antioxidant (etc) benefits. The list goes on.

MuscleMecca Crew

Duality · Jan 22, 2009

tim290280 said:
^^ Plus the actual amounts of fructose in fruit is actually rather low. The fruit ends up being a good source of nutrients and vitamins. You'd have to eat a lot of fruit and veges (non starchy) to ever get fat or halt your leaning down. Also I never said eat shitloads of fruit, the couple of pieces of fruit a day you need are not going to be a problem (unless you consume a lot of sugared, HFCS products).

And I'm sorry but "supplement fibre"?? Supplement vitamins???? Why bother having food at all? We'll just consume processed supplements........ The reason we don't is that there are all sorts of co-factors and enzymes present in food that we do not obtain from any supplements. Have a read about the fact that vitamin C is not acutally ascorbic acid but is a larger molecule that has other elements. We actually are best served by consuming it as the more complex molecule to get teh antioxidant (etc) benefits. The list goes on.

listen i'm not knocking on fruit from a health standpoint in the least bit. but if you're dieting, and exteremly low bodyfat is your goal, there are better choices than fruit.

bambam55 · Jan 22, 2009

I agree with both of you guys, but I think duality is trying to say in the bodybuilding world unless your bulking fruit doesn't take place as often.

The_KM · Jan 22, 2009

Protein absolutely can be stored as fat, but it's difficult to pinpoint when on a cutting diet because, quite honestly, it's probably unbound to happen.

TJ said:
You can get lean eating fruit because the sugar is fructose and doesn't drastically increase insulin levels like man made sugar. Plus, most fruits have a low GI because of all the fiber. Fruits are great for vitamins, minerals and a plethora of health beneifts, too.

Insulin sensitivity may not subside, but that doesn't mean fructose is a free-for-all. Fructose is stored in the liver, and if the liver reaches it's highest capacity (~75g), then it will convert it to triglycerides and be stored as adipose tissue.

Yeah, fruit contains health benefits, but you aren't taking into consideration that a cutting diet is a short period of time, and usually doesn't become a way of life. If the person is dieting using grains.... hemicelluloses, celluloses, and so on will be accessible throughout the diet.

Also, GI is obsolete and probably isn't the most accurate way of determining a carb's affect on insulin.

KM - is there a study that specifically states that protein will not be stored as fat? Just curious, because there have been studies that state "a calorie is a calorie."

I don't have a study, nor do I need one, but if you have a basic fundamental understanding of metabolism you would understand when certain nutrients will be stored as fat or if they are used as energy. A calorie is not a calorie, if that was the case then dieting and emphasizing certain nutrients would be a lame protocol, no?

It's actually pretty simplistic:

Glycogen stores are saturated, glucose is converted to glycerol, attaching 3 FA's... synthesizing triglycerides. Protein doesn't have a storage sight in the body, so if the body does not necessitate it at a given time, it's converted to glucose or stored as fat depending on energy variables. Fat, if taken in access can either breakdown it's carbon chains to form acetyl CoA and enter glyolysis, or be stored as fat.

So, using this information, we put it into retrospect:

If you're cutting, especially a low-carb diet like this thread prioritizes, protein is expended as a fuel source in combination with fat. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a necessity of raising protein! That said, we restore what we lost through gluconeogenic pathways because protein is NOT in excess.

The_KM · Jan 22, 2009

Fructose and sucrose are different sugars with different metabolic tracts and priorities. So saying A isn't as bad B is extremely inaccurate! Sucrose, if necessary can be hydrolyed into glucose to be stored as muscle glycogen, where as fructose cannot (we lack PFK-1 on muscle cell membranes).

So, if fructose capacity in the liver is reached max, what happens now? Our body rejects it? No. It's recomposed into a substrate we can store or circulate.

TJ · Jan 22, 2009

I really have no idea what's going on with all of these big scientific terms but I'd say 95% of the time, even for a BB, a calorie is a calorie. Sure, when a BB is trying to get lower than, say 6%, then certain macros and foods may need to be consumed but only once they reach that 6% range.

Braaq · Jan 22, 2009

Great posts coming from this thread, especially from KM. It brought back exactly why I loved learning this stuff. However, the only ones that can understand or know what your posting about would be me, Flex, IS, tim, Creator and possibly TJ (but not from the look at his past post :keke:

)... I think things can be kept in a much more "simpler" fashion for the majority of members with questions.

Mach · Jan 22, 2009

Braaq said:
Great posts coming from this thread, especially from KM. It brought back exactly why I loved learning this stuff. However, the only ones that can understand or know what your posting about would be me, Flex, IS, tim, Creator and possibly TJ (but not from the look at his past post )... I think things can be kept in a much more "simpler" fashion for the majority of members with questions.

Thank you, please keep it simple guys...good posts so far.. As to someone telling me I need to remove the fats from my log??? Where in there do I have fats? and if i do,it's not much to be concerned about.

tim290280 · Jan 22, 2009

I thought I had posted this article previously, but must have just been the abstract:

A calorie is a calorie review:

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 79, No. 5, 899S-906S, May 2004
Is a calorie a calorie?
Andrea C Buchholz and Dale A Schoeller

ABSTRACT
The aim of this review was to evaluate data regarding potential thermodynamic mechanisms for increased rates of weight loss in subjects consuming diets high in protein and/or low in carbohydrate. Studies that compared weight loss and energy expenditure in adults consuming diets high in protein and/or low in carbohydrate with those in adults consuming diets low in fat were reviewed. In addition, studies that measured the metabolizable energy of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates were reviewed. Diets high in protein and/or low in carbohydrate produced an 2.5-kg greater weight loss after 12 wk of treatment. Neither macronutrient-specific differences in the availability of dietary energy nor changes in energy expenditure could explain these differences in weight loss. Thermodynamics dictate that a calorie is a calorie regardless of the macronutrient composition of the diet. Further research on differences in the composition of weight loss and on the influence of satiety on compliance with energy-restricted diets is needed to explain the observed increase in weight loss with diets high in protein and/or low in carbohydrate.

Conclusion
We conclude that a calorie is a calorie. From a purely thermodynamic point of view, this is clear because the human body or, indeed, any living organism cannot create or destroy energy but can only convert energy from one form to another. In comparing energy balance between dietary treatments, however, it must be remembered that the units of dietary energy are metabolizable energy and not gross energy. This is perhaps unfortunate because metabolizable energy is much more difficult to determine than is gross energy, because the Atwater factors used in calculating metabolizable energy are not exact. As such, our food tables are not perfect, and small errors are associated with their use.

In addition, we concede that the substitution of one macronutrient for another has been shown in some studies to have a statistically significant effect on the expenditure half of the energy balance equation. This has been observed most often for high-protein diets. Evidence indicates, however, that the difference in energy expenditure is small and can potentially account for less than one-third of the differences in weight loss that have been reported between high-protein or low-carbohydrate diets and high-carbohydrate or low-fat diets. As such, a calorie is a calorie. Further research is needed to identify the mechanisms that result in greater weight loss with one diet than with another.

If people want I can post the entire thing in the articles section.

The_KM · Jan 22, 2009

Nice post Tim. The conclusive data seems contradictory to me, but maybe it's just me.

Braaq said:
Great posts coming from this thread, especially from KM. It brought back exactly why I loved learning this stuff. However, the only ones that can understand or know what your posting about would be me, Flex, IS, tim, Creator and possibly TJ (but not from the look at his past post )... I think things can be kept in a much more "simpler" fashion for the majority of members with questions.

Shit, TJ, were you asking a question? For some reason I took it as if you were encouraging a debate, so without a doubt, my fault for getting technical. If you'd like me to simple it down, I'd love to, but I used science to back up my point instead of saying "this, this and that" without any reinforcement.

A calories is a calories, but where that calorie comes from depends on how it will be distributed/utilized. Proteins are not the same as carbs, yet they exert the same amount of energy (4 calories/gram).

tim290280 · Jan 22, 2009

^^ And as stated, there is no benefit to consuming an overabundance of any one macro over another (unless you are aiming for a short term keto diet, Braaq :xyxthumbs:

).

Oh and another thing: food diary. Simplest way to make sure you actually eat as much as you think you do. I keep making this point, but even I get lazy and don't keep one.

Cutting Down (Diet)

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