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Urgent Help Plz!!

M

MrWeapon

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Hey guys..
I just bought some stuff today...

I bought some anti estrogen pills, Deca, Sustanon and Pregnyl (HCG)

I have been off cycle for nearly 2 months.

I made the mistake of not having any PCT, so i bought some HCG today.

The anti estrogen tablets i got are apparently awesome, this is what it reads on the bottle:

DHEA 100mg
Exermestane 10mg
Letrozole 1.5mg
Anastrozole 0.5mg
Dutasteride 0.5mg

Is this good??
I was told to take these with my cycle to lower my estrogen and enable my testosterone levels to stay high.

Also the HCG i was told to take 200mcg per day, i was also advised i can take HCG while i'm on cycle, is this true??

I am going to start a cycle of Sustanon and Deca and was wondering if i can continue to take HCG when i begin my cycle.
 
D

DriDDeRz

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I thought HCG was to be taken for a PCT?
not 100% sure i, myself is still learning more about AAS

someone will pop in soon to help out, dont worry mate and dont rush into things to quickly
 
Duality

Duality

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really.......there's almost nothing to say here. if you're not going to heed the advice from those of us who know what we're talking about and stay away until you garner some legitimate knowledge of your own, you will continue to be one of many poster boys of ignorant, dangerous steroid users and give the rest of us a bad name. these questions are beyond novice. i have no problem helping a guy out, BUT KNOW YOUR SHIT BEFORE YOU USE. you clearly do not.

NO, you should not take HCG during cycle. not only does it aromatize heavily it will do you no good stimulating your HPTA while your taking suppressive drugs like testosterone and deca, basically the two most suppressive drugs there are. take it after your cycle with an AI and you will have one of the best PCT's money can buy. i personally think just nolva will suit you just fine, but if you want to use HCG go ahead.

why an anti estrogen pill would have so many different AI's in them is beyond me and quite frankly sounds fake. ALL YOU'D NEED to get an effective estrogen supression/elimination is .5-1 mg of letro a day, or every other day. the dutasteride isn't a bad call, a DHT blocker never is, but again, unecessary IMO.

you shouldn't take an anti estrogen during cycle unless you are starting to feel the side effects of excess estrogen. if your nipples are even slightly sensitive, jump on some letro and it will subside quickly. taking an estrogen inhibitor from the get go will hinder your gains, some estrogen is beneficial to mucsle growth.


i feel bad that you are so misguided in your attempts to use these. i have NO problem helping a guy out, but helping someone who won't help themself is wasted effort. if you want to legitimately use these stop relying on others and learn.
 
M

MrWeapon

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i am misguided because i hear different ****, n the research i do doesn't make sense.
the boys at the old site told me to use HCG on cycle :S

i get mixed advice, so what do you expect me to do? i do research but it makes no sense to me!
 
M

MrWeapon

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steroid.com/HCG.php

it says that HCG is a pct

ok, im not gona do a cycle until i'm back to normal again...

so should i use HCG now ??
i need to get my balls producing test again
they've shrunk in size to..

so what should i do?
 
M

MrWeapon

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The doctor i got it off told me, HCG is used to trick your brain into converting everything to testosterone cause it sends a signal to it saying you have low test.

He told me, if i use .2 of it before i sleep everynight i'll increase my test levels especially with the DHEA tablets and with my cycle

This is an Endo.. this is what he told me, this is what i think i might do.
 
Big04pimpin

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Yes, you can take HCG during a cycle. Thats what the pro's do since they never come off. It keeps size in your balls so they don't shrink.

Also, why would you put all of those in one pill you might ask? Well each drug acts differently towards estrogen and prolactin. Those are the two main hormones you want to control. Also they act differently toward cholesterol and other key parts of your body.

Not sure Mr.Weapon, what you mean by HCG will lower estrogen and enable test levels to stay high. This is not true. Your balls will be in a ready state but you won't be producing a huge amount of test if your already on a good amount of exogenous test.

What I would do if I was you? Well I would do the HCG now, and also do the PCT and then put the drugs down. If you want to hit it again in 6 months then so be it but give your body a chance to level back out.
 
M

MrWeapon

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Ok thanks for that.

The pills i have were made by a compound chemist (someone who makes pharmaceuticals to the needs of patients) i told the endo what i want (high test, low estrogen) so he's written this to the compound chemist to make.

I started my new cycle already.
500mg testosterone and 400mg deca for the first few weeks then i'm going to up the dosage.

I'm taking GHRP-6 at 500mcg per day.
And i'm taking HCG at .2 per day, along with 1 tablet per day of the AI.

My aim is to keep my test as high as possible.
 
tim290280

tim290280

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i am misguided because i hear different shit, n the research i do doesn't make sense.
the boys at www.bodybuildingdungeon.com told me to use HCG on cycle :S

i get mixed advice, so what do you expect me to do? i do research but it makes no sense to me!

I've found the problem. Gringo and his buddies are not the people that you should be taking any advice from, ever. But don't take my word for it. Check out his pics in his training log. He's ~178cm and ~75kg, for a guy that wants to be huge and has done a few cycles he clearly has no idea.


I will now go back to never posting in this section :tiphat:
 
Duality

Duality

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I've found the problem. Gringo and his buddies are not the people that you should be taking any advice from, ever. But don't take my word for it. Check out his pics in his training log. He's ~178cm and ~75kg, for a guy that wants to be huge and has done a few cycles he clearly has no idea.


I will now go back to never posting in this section :tiphat:


oh no:ughnoes: Tim is in the steroids section? only criminals post in the steroid sections. leave us criminals and our drugs alone Tim!
 

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Braaq

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http://www.steroid.com/HCG.phtml

it says that HCG is a pct

ok, im not gona do a cycle until i'm back to normal again...

so should i use HCG now ??
i need to get my balls producing test again
they've shrunk in size to..

so what should i do?

No you should not use HCG as a PCT. The whole point of a PCT is to get your HPTA back on track on producing LH. HCG acts as synthetic LH and if used your body will not make its own. That is a rather simplistic way of explaining it. HCG is to be used towards the end of a cycle before PCT, not as a PCT. You should be using Clomid or Nolvadex.
 
MetalMX

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No you should not use HCG as a PCT. The whole point of a PCT is to get your HPTA back on track on producing LH. HCG acts as synthetic LH and if used your body will not make its own. That is a rather simplistic way of explaining it. HCG is to be used towards the end of a cycle before PCT, not as a PCT. You should be using Clomid or Nolvadex.



Ahhh HCG should be used AS PCT also. Talk about misinformation...

Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage.

Testosterone use is suppressive to the HPTA through a negative feedback loop since the body "sees" this outside source and reduces its own output accordingly.

HCG stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. HCG mimics LH and helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, HCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production.

Ideally it should be used during to maintain testicular size and after to stimulate LH production. Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT.

It directly stimulates a increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume.

Some people with low Test use HCG as sole TRT.
 
Big04pimpin

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Ahhh HCG should be used AS PCT also. Talk about misinformation...

Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage.

Testosterone use is suppressive to the HPTA through a negative feedback loop since the body "sees" this outside source and reduces its own output accordingly.

HCG stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. HCG mimics LH and helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, HCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production.

Ideally it should be used during to maintain testicular size and after to stimulate LH production. Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT.

It directly stimulates a increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume.

Some people with low Test use HCG as sole TRT.


Pfft... I guess you can go all scientific with it. But ya, you hit it right on the head. Thats why guys use it mid cycle, right at the last shot if using long ester gear, and also through out PCT. I also know guys that combine clomid and HCG will on a long cycle for the "sport" of it. When you combine those two your loads when you cum and way bigger.
 
Braaq

Braaq

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Ahhh HCG should be used AS PCT also. Talk about misinformation...

Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage.

Testosterone use is suppressive to the HPTA through a negative feedback loop since the body "sees" this outside source and reduces its own output accordingly.

HCG stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. HCG mimics LH and helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, HCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production.

Ideally it should be used during to maintain testicular size and after to stimulate LH production. Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT.

It directly stimulates a increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume.

Some people with low Test use HCG as sole TRT.

Wrong, you can copy paste from wikipedia all you want but it doesn't mean you understand what you are talking about. I on the other hand understand endocrine physiology and how it works, not just copy and paste. If you don't understand what your talking about stop with advice please. Wikipedia is not the best source of info and should not be your basis for providing advice.
HCG is not supposed to be used as a PCT. Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chorionic_gonadotropin :doh:
:49:
 
Big04pimpin

Big04pimpin

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Wrong, you can copy paste from Wikipedia all you want but it doesn't mean you understand what you are talking about. I on the other hand understand endocrine physiology and how it works, not just copy and paste. If you don't understand what your talking about stop posting advice please. Wikipedia is not the best source of info and should not be your basis for providing advice.
HCG is not supposed to be used as a PCT. Period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chorionic_gonadotropin :doh:
:49:

Braaq, what do you mean not to be used as a PCT? It is the beginning of your PCT and for more advanced users, the middle and end also when they come off a nice long year or two year long cycle. Pcycle therapy is just that, helps you bring your balls back and HCG is a key ingredient to that. Now if the guy above understands all that, i have no clue but I know exactly what it does for you and why a lot of guys will stand by it.
 
Duality

Duality

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HCG can and should be used as a PCT. it's used amongst pros throughout there very long cycles to help maintain testicular size and can be an effective agent in any PCT regime. a regime of HCG around the time of your last steroid shot accompanied by some nolva or clomid will have you back up and running in no time. you should use it for no more than 3 weeks in your PCT regime at roughly 400iu's about 3 times weekly.

a short excerpt from Micheal Sally, M.D. gives a good explanation as to why:

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.
 
Braaq

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Using anything synthetic will inhibit the body's natural secretion of that same "product". hCG mimics LH, LH stimulated the Ledig Cells in the Testes to produce Testosterone. If you have something synthetic like hCG, then you body does not produce natural LH. hCG should be used towards the end of a cycle, if it is to be used. Not as your PCT but a way of jump starting your HPTA for the reason stated by Big04, however it should not be used as a PCT. Again, after long cycles take it towards the end not after.
I am not going to argue with Duality who will have to look up what HPTA stands for but doesn't necessarily understand what he is posting and/or why.
I am done arguing this with people who use friends experiences, wikipedia or teh proz as a form of reference.
 
Duality

Duality

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Using anything synthetic will inhibit the body's natural secretion of that same "product". hCG mimics LH, LH stimulated the Ledig Cells in the Testes to produce Testosterone. If you have something synthetic like hCG, then you body does not produce natural LH. hCG should be used towards the end of a cycle, if it is to be used. Not as your PCT but a way of jump starting your HPTA for the reason stated by Big04, however it should not be used as a PCT. Again, after long cycles take it towards the end not after.
I am not going to argue with Duality who will have to look up what HPTA stands for but doesn't necessarily understand what he is posting and/or why.
I am done arguing this with people who use friends experiences, Wikipedia or the professional bodybuilders as a form of reference.


:49: :49: :49:


that's what I said. but good job. i quoted a doctor, this wasn't "my opinion". but you get belittling, typical

oh and just an fyi, a medical doctor's take on it > yours
 
Braaq

Braaq

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Duality said:
HCG can and should be used as a PCT. it's used amongst pros throughout there very long cycles to help maintain testicular size and can be an effective agent in any PCT regime.
Oh really? Is that what your post said? :doh:

:49: :49: :49:


that's what my post said. but good job. i quoted a doctor, this wasn't "my opinion". but you get belittling, typical

oh and just an fyi, a medical doctor's take on it > yours

Ok, here is a perfect example, and MD's are not technically experts in this field. You would want to consult an endocrinologist if you want to discuss this with an "MD". As I said to MetalMX, please don't post crap if you don't understand it.

HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6) Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

:bitelip:
 
Duality

Duality

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Ok, here is a perfect example, and MD's are not technically experts in this field.


You would want to consult an endocrinologist if you want to discuss this with an "MD". As I said to MetalMX, please don't post crap if you don't understand it.



:bitelip:


that's a fine article and another good take on it. i'm not saying i or anyone else knows more than you, but there are other takes on the matter that are backed by facts that are in turn, not incorrect.


you see that? that's how we respond in an encouraging, friendly way. your constant need to belittle others is annoying and arrogant.
 

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