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Dorian Yates MD seminar - chest and legs training

tkD

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tkD

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lol @ 10:30

Dorian: "Bench press is officially a shitty pec exercise...etc dumbbell flyes are way better" :rofl3:
 
Johnny5

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^

Yeah, haha. I bet everyone there's like "WTF I'm not going to stop benching". I know I won't. :cool:

Nice video though, a lot of good pointers.
 
Bulkboy

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lol @ 10:30

Dorian: "Bench press is officially a shitty pec exercise...etc dumbbell flyes are way better" :rofl3:

i lol'ed at this as well. flyes imo is pretty shitty for ur shoulders. atleast my shoulders were never as bad as when i did flyes on a regular basis.

that being said, hes got a point when he points out that pretty much every pec tear he's seen has been because of the bench press. anyone else wanna chime in? whats the science regarding pec activation during flat bench compared to inclines, declines etc?
 
Natzo

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i lol'ed at this as well. flyes imo is pretty shitty for ur shoulders. atleast my shoulders were never as bad as when i did flyes on a regular basis.

that being said, hes got a point when he points out that pretty much every pec tear he's seen has been because of the bench press. anyone else wanna chime in? whats the science regarding pec activation during flat bench compared to inclines, declines etc?

According to a study Tim posted here chest exercises considering muscle activation go by this order.

- incline/ flat press DB or BB
- cable flyes
-db flyes
- decline press

:bitelip: Tim correct me if i'm wrong..
 
Johnny5

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According to Dorian that decline press should be higher up... I never do declines though. Just never feels right to me. If I was there I'd ask about replacing declines with dips (feet to the back, and chin pointed down)?
 
Beau

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i lol'ed at this as well. flyes imo is pretty shitty for ur shoulders. atleast my shoulders were never as bad as when i did flyes on a regular basis.

that being said, hes got a point when he points out that pretty much every pec tear he's seen has been because of the bench press. anyone else wanna chime in? whats the science regarding pec activation during flat bench compared to inclines, declines etc?

I gotta agree with Dorian here...just from personal experience nothing hurts my shoulders more than flat presses, specifically flat barbell.

Flyes never bothered my shoulders but I'm pretty particular with my form.
 
tkD

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I thought it's better to post the leg training seminar in here as well.
 
tkD

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Yeah, haha. I bet everyone there's like "WTF I'm not going to stop benching". I know I won't. :cool:

Same here man. Just because a 6x Mr. O said that the flat bench is "officially shitty" this means nothing to me. :bitelip:

I've never had problems with my shoulders doing it btw.
 
Zviko

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Pros and ex champions have good advice but it's obvious you have to take into account that at the end of the day his a different person to us, what nags him like his injuries may not be our problem, you talk to ronnie you see him bench pressing, even zack khan dorians prodidgy all his chest vids it's flat bench press he mainly does and some heavy ass weights too, kai greene, never heard em say dont bench
 

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Everyone is different...

By the way he didn't say "don't bench" he said there are better exercises to do than flat bench presses.
 
joemamma5

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The fly, be it dumbell or cable, is exercising the pec in the motion for which it was intended. To pull the arms forward in front of the torso. Therefore, I can understand why some would feel this exercise would be more effective than a push exercise where the shoulders are going to be more dominant.
 
tim290280

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The fly, be it dumbell or cable, is exercising the pec in the motion for which it was intended. To pull the arms forward in front of the torso. Therefore, I can understand why some would feel this exercise would be more effective than a push exercise where the shoulders are going to be more dominant.

:bowroflarms: Oh that was funny.

Please tell me the biomechanics behind that statement.
Natzo said:
According to a study Tim posted here chest exercises considering muscle activation go by this order.

- incline/ flat press DB or BB
- cable flyes
-db flyes
- decline press

Tim correct me if i'm wrong..
Depends how you want to measure things. There are a number of studies on the muscle recruitments of the pressing muscles, and there are a number that use different methods.

The order you are stating has been posted in a larger thread of EMG findings on % of recruitment. EMG has its flaws though as it is very site specific (usually only measuring the surface of the muscle and then only a few fibres in that vacinity). There are deeper EMG probes that are comparatively better. The study above pretty much was surface EMG, so take any findings with a pinch of salt. But also remember what they are measuring and how they did it.

Now one of the better studies I've read was comparing the proportion of muscle involvement in various lifts, rather than levels of activation. This gives you a much better idea of what is working and how much, as opposed to levels of activation. This study concluded that flat and incline bench recruited stuff the same, close grip got more clavicular head, decline less shoulders, and flys were a non-event in comparison to a press. The reason flys rank high on straight surface EMG (as far as I understand, others may have a beter understanding) is that you have removed a lot of the involvement of the delts, triceps, and pec minor (to some extent I believe) that would normally be involved in a press. This fly movement also acts to stretch the pec position, unlike a press which is designed to use it as part of a motion. So you see a press has greater potential as you are involving more muscle, more muscle groups and greater loading. Flys are relying on a stretch position and recruitment firing for the entire ROM.

Now flys also tend to place the joints and various connective tissues under strain. Case in point is the "burn" in the peak contraction that people think is hitting their "inner chest". Reality is that you are placing a heap of strain on the sternal attachments of the pec muscles (under relatively light loading). Same thing when you feel your bicep near the elbow after them. So you have an exercise that is pretty hard on the shoulder, elbow and sternum that has a lower loading potential and is only really useful when done with cables (pec decs are crap, DB's have all loading in the bottom position and virtually deload at the top).

Dorian is right that the bench can be a crap chest exercise, but that is usually in guys that are arm dominant or delt dominant. Fix the imbalance and it isn't an issue. Flys offer too little in terms of loading to provide enough training stimulus for real growth, they are a warmup or a finisher, and even then I wouldn't use them regularly.
 
Hypocrisy86

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for me, db flyes and smith presses are what i do now, due to both of my shoulders hurting regardless of how i do flat/incline or decline bb presses etc. i wish the benches at my gym were like most of the ones powerlifters use, so you can literally slide the bb off, but the ones at my gym, you have to lift off which hurts my shoulders, and since my left shoulder/back is weaker i have to compromise ...
 
Johnny5

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"Lunge is more of a balance thing."
"Lunges are a waste of time."

I don't know man... A lot of bodybuilders still do lunges. I'll still be doing them they're a lot of fun. Anyway I think I need lunges because my right quad for some reason isn't as developed as my left quad (where there's a huge line that splits the outer quad). I would ask Dorian about that, but I think I just have to hit it with more single foot leg presses, and it'll come up in time.

And I think I feel the same way about squats. After squatting I really feel my glutes and my lower back. My form is good though and I do ATG. But I'll keep it in my programme.
 
tim290280

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for me, db flyes and smith presses are what i do now, due to both of my shoulders hurting regardless of how i do flat/incline or decline bb presses etc. i wish the benches at my gym were like most of the ones powerlifters use, so you can literally slide the bb off, but the ones at my gym, you have to lift off which hurts my shoulders, and since my left shoulder/back is weaker i have to compromise ...

I remember a conversation we had a few years ago when I mentioned that you should keep your form tighter and get a lift off or your shoulders would suck. Smith machine presses suck too, they are going to keep doing damage. Might want to look at addressing your shoulder problems for a year.:gaysign:
Johnny 5 said:
"Lunge is more of a balance thing."
"Lunges are a waste of time."

I don't know man... A lot of bodybuilders still do lunges. I'll still be doing them they're a lot of fun. Anyway I think I need lunges because my right quad for some reason isn't as developed as my left quad (where there's a huge line that splits the outer quad). I would ask Dorian about that, but I think I just have to hit it with more single foot leg presses, and it'll come up in time.

And I think I feel the same way about squats. After squatting I really feel my glutes and my lower back. My form is good though and I do ATG. But I'll keep it in my programme.
Lunges are good and train the leg completely differently to other exercises. If you don't have the basic levels of balance to do a split squat or lunge then you really have to question what you are actually achieving. But once you stop being quad dominant the lunge will hit the whole leg not just the quad.

I keep hearing people talk about squats like they don't work the quads. I seriously don't understand where this comes from. Short of turning the movement into a Good Morning you should work the quads, glutes, hammys and core. If you are weak in the glutes and core then of course you'll notice it there, but it still works the quads.
 
Johnny5

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Thanks Tim!

I do lunges with dumbbells as it's easier to balance and to go to really heavy. I've tried with a barbell but it didn't fell right. I had to balance myself way, way more so I scrapped it - but that might be me.
 
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So many dumb questions. :footmouth:

I liked how Dorian destroyed the separation myth in the legs video. The guy said "well....I heard hack squats are great for separation too".....Dorian basically interruped him and said "separation is genetics and lower bodyfat, ya? That has absolutely nothing to do with the exercise"
 
Johnny5

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So many dumb questions. :footmouth:

I liked how Dorian destroyed the separation myth in the legs video. The guy said "well....I heard hack squats are great for separation too".....Dorian basically interruped him and said "separation is genetics and lower bodyfat, ya? That has absolutely nothing to do with the exercise"

Haha, yeah. :)

But that guy did ask some pretty good questions though. So a big round of applause for him! Can't wait to see the back training tomorrow, I really need a few pointers - right now I've got to go to bed. :shakefist:
 
joemamma5

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Tim,
The "Biomechanics behind my statement" are as follows.

The Pectoralis Major muscles (also known as the Pecs) are located on the front of the rib cage.

The Pecs attach to the humerus (upper arm) near the shoulder joint and originate on the breastbone in the center of the chest.

The fibers of the Pectoralis muscles run like a fan across the chest. The fan-like structure of the Pecs allows the humerus to move in a variety of planes across the body.

The function of the Pectoralis Major is to bring the humerus (upper arm) across the chest. A flye movement is the best example of this action.

Hope that helps.
 
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