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Bicep tears and deadlifting

Ironslave

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I mentioned this in a thread Flex started, which was getting off track, so let's keep it going here.... I did a youtube search for "deadlift bicep", and here are ALL the results of someone tearing their bicep on a deadlift. Notice something about every one of them?


























Every case had someone tearing their bicep using the over-under grip, with the under gripping arm being the one that tears.
 
Flex

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Ewww, the one video you can see the bicep instantly vanish.
 
tim290280

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I notice they all had bent arms and tensed biceps.

Straight arms all the way = no problem.
 
Ironslave

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I notice they all had bent arms and tensed biceps.

Straight arms all the way = no problem.

Tim, try a heavy set of deadlifts with an underhand grip, say, a true 5 RM, and try and do it while keeping your bicep completely relaxed and arms fully straight the whole time.... not possible. Further, the form used by all of these guys was essentially text book, I've attached an image of them at the exact moment prior to the tear... I'm not sure how much straighter they could have kept their arms?

ivajjk-1.png
 
Zigurd

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I talked to an old Russian powerlifter friend of mine. Dude has about 40 years of experience.

He told me that once my deadlift got to something like 1.5 BW I should not use underhand grip. He said the bicep wasnt meant to hold that much tension. And even though 1.5 BW is not that much you should never risk it, even with perfect form.

I follow his advice.
 
tim290280

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Tim, try a heavy set of deadlifts with an underhand grip, say, a true 5 RM, and try and do it while keeping your bicep completely relaxed and arms fully straight the whole time.... not possible. Further, the form used by all of these guys was essentially text book, I've attached an image of them at the exact moment prior to the tear... I'm not sure how much straighter they could have kept their arms?

ivajjk-1.png

I see your point.

I've never had a problem keeping a straight arm but there are a couple of things I don't do a lot of:
1) High rep deadlifts
2) Touch and go deadlifts
3) Using one grip style
4) Genuine max load for reps.

Personally I'm working on getting used to the hook-grip. So far I can use it for a bit more than I can use a pronated grip for, weight wise. Still no-where near what I can hold with a mixed grip.

Bulky and I had this conversation a while ago. He was scared of the bicep tear possibility. Now you have me thinking twice about it. Bulky lets go the hook-grip!!!
 
Daniel Andersson

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This is one of my biggest fears in the gym tearing somthing (again)
So I have always used a double overhand grip doing deads.
 
curtisymoo

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wow jens grau just beasted the complete lift after it tore...holy sh

same with the last guy too i think
 
tim290280

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Just tried out a deadlift this evening with various grips between sets to see how active the bicep is. I do see your point IS.

The bicep was tensed in the supinated position regardless of how straight the arm was. The amount the arm was tensed didn't seem to vary with load as far as I could tell.

The next question is how much load can the arm handle?

Well taking myself as an example; I can do chinups with an additional 60kg of weight at BW of 90kg. So anything up to 150kg on a deadlift shouldn't bother me, technically. This is also a lot more than the 1.5xBW that someone else mentioned. So what level is going to start being an issue? 2xBW? 2.5xBW?

Most of the examples given would have to be pulling in excess of 2.5xBW.
 
Bulkboy

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^^ ye tim, ive noticed aswell, that the bicep in the supinated position is tense after a heavy set of deadlifts, while the pronated bicep is fine. i have to take this as a sign of possible injury risk.

im with u on trying the hook grip:D atleast im not gonna use the one hand pronated and one supinated again. dont wanna risk a tear.
 

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Ironslave

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Just tried out a deadlift this evening with various grips between sets to see how active the bicep is. I do see your point IS.

The bicep was tensed in the supinated position regardless of how straight the arm was. The amount the arm was tensed didn't seem to vary with load as far as I could tell.

The next question is how much load can the arm handle?

Well taking myself as an example; I can do chinups with an additional 60kg of weight at BW of 90kg. So anything up to 150kg on a deadlift shouldn't bother me, technically. This is also a lot more than the 1.5xBW that someone else mentioned. So what level is going to start being an issue? 2xBW? 2.5xBW?

Most of the examples given would have to be pulling in excess of 2.5xBW.

Of course, the fact that you're even gripping the bar in a supinated grip means the bicep will be activated! There's no way of knowing what load falls into the injury risk range, some people can go their entire lives deadlifting 3x BW for their working sets, or even 4x bw for a 1rm, and never have a problem.

I just don't see the need to risk it at all. You'd certainly agree that a major key to weight lifting is to try and avoid as much injury risk as possible because lets face it, weight lifting is about doing things beyond what the body is naturally supposed to be capable of. Supinated grip on back work falls into this category of unnecessary risk, imo.
 
Flex

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Sure the higher the load your bicep is handling the more the chance of a tear, but you could tear it doing something as simple as light curls.
 
Ironslave

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Sure the higher the load your bicep is handling the more the chance of a tear, but you could tear it doing something as simple as light curls.

Of course... when I worked as a trainer a middle aged man tore his bicep literally less than an arm length away from be doing a warm up set of preacher curls with 10lbs on each side... the risk is always there, the goal is to just minimize unnecessary risk.
 
Bulkboy

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Supinated grip on back work falls into this category of unnecessary risk, imo.

when u say back work, u mean one shouldnt do anything with a supinated grip? not even chins, pulldowns or cable rows? cuz i gotta be honest, i feel the supinated grip for some reason hits my lats alot more efficiently than a pronated grip, whether it be rows, chins etc...


oh and thanks for bringing up the subject:tiphat: im very conserned with longevity when it comes to weightlifting, and i havent had any major injuries yet. and id like to keep it that way.
 
El Freako

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I've tried to transfer to hook grip but my fingers are too short so unfortunately until my OH grip improves I'm stuck with alternated if I want to able to move decent weight.
 
Flex

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when u say back work, u mean one shouldnt do anything with a supinated grip? not even chins, pulldowns or cable rows? cuz i gotta be honest, i feel the supinated grip for some reason hits my lats alot more efficiently than a pronated grip, whether it be rows, chins etc...


oh and thanks for bringing up the subject:tiphat: im very conserned with longevity when it comes to weightlifting, and i havent had any major injuries yet. and id like to keep it that way.
Perhaps you're not keeping your elbows in enough to efficiently hit the back when using pronated.
 
Big_Guns_Lance

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Of course, the fact that you're even gripping the bar in a supinated grip means the bicep will be activated!

Is the bicep not activated aswell in the pronated grip though? And also who's to say that you won't injure the brachialis and brachiradialis, surely the biceps are stronger.

I agree with you but i'm just thinking of things to persuade me even more etc.
 
Ironslave

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when u say back work, u mean one shouldnt do anything with a supinated grip? not even chins, pulldowns or cable rows? cuz i gotta be honest, i feel the supinated grip for some reason hits my lats alot more efficiently than a pronated grip, whether it be rows, chins etc...


oh and thanks for bringing up the subject:tiphat: im very conserned with longevity when it comes to weightlifting, and i havent had any major injuries yet. and id like to keep it that way.

I can't say for sure about chins/pulldowns/rows... I actually agree in that a supinated grip seems to "feel" like it hits the back harder, but it's up to each person if they think the benefit is worth the injury risk.

To me, it's not, but after seeing a bicep rip off the insertion and roll up like window shade less than 2 feet away from me, I'm going to always lean towards the side of caution. I'd say that if you can't feel pronated grip rows &pull ups/downs hitting your back, your form is off, so slightly lighten the load.
 
Ironslave

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I've tried to transfer to hook grip but my fingers are too short so unfortunately until my OH grip improves I'm stuck with alternated if I want to able to move decent weight.

You're a power lifter in contests though, right? Competitive athletes do a lot of things for their sport that they need to do in order to be more successful, but put them at risk.


Is the bicep not activated aswell in the pronated grip though? And also who's to say that you won't injure the brachialis and brachiradialis, surely the biceps are stronger.

I agree with you but i'm just thinking of things to persuade mke even more etc.

Of course it is activated as well, and of course you can injure other forearm flexors in many other ways.... Branch Warren tore his tricep walking down the stairs, does this mean that walking down the stairs is an exercise which puts the tricep at risk?

Again, it's about minimizing the risk of injury. Nobody is saying you will get injured using a supinated grip on deads/rows, but the chance is higher.
 
Big_Guns_Lance

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You're a power lifter in contests though, right? Competitive athletes do a lot of things for their sport that they need to do in order to be more successful, but put them at risk.




Of course it is activated as well, and of course you can injure other forearm flexors in many other ways.... Branch Warren tore his tricep walking down the stairs, does this mean that walking down the stairs is an exercise which puts the tricep at risk?

Again, it's about minimizing the risk of injury. Nobody is saying you will get injured using a supinated grip on deads/rows, but the chance is higher.

Thanks IS. Just seeing them videos made me abit :bitenails:

I'm going to try overhand and see how that goes. I think I should stick to that because i'm not looking for maximal lifts (weight lifting) and if i ahev problems with my grip then that should just tell me to work on it.
 

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