Canadian Health Care vs American

Ryeland · Jun 27, 2009

This one is for you Ironslave, we have had many discussions on this in the past. This one brings some really interesting points that challenge your opinions, however I am not sure from where the stats in the article came so take them with a grain of salt.

The Denver Post published an interesting article about the Canadian Healthcare system and how it relates and compares to the American system.

Read the article HERE and then post your thoughts

Ironslave · Jun 27, 2009

The US doesn't have free market health care... it has 'quasi' market care..... will read the article in full now.

Ryeland · Jun 27, 2009

Article doesn't really discuss free market healthcare, it just discusses the current state (not the ideologies) of both healthcare systems.

Ironslave · Jun 27, 2009

Eh, overall it's a pretty shitty article with no substance to their points.

- on "average" Canada's taxes might not be all that much higher, but the highest income tax bracket in the US is 35% of earnings over $372,950, in Canada it is 29% of income over $126,000, their state income taxes are also much much lower than our provincial ones (some states don't have any). Canada runs more of a welfare state.

Canada federal/provincial tax rates.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

US tax rates

Federal
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

State
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/228.html

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world

Of course, again, their system has the "worst of both worlds" with government subsidization, and fixed price 'capitalism'.

Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage

Americans on average are also much less healthy than Canadians. Their obesity and inactivity rates are much higher. I'm willing to bet also that more Americans likely opt for expensive plastic/cosmetic surgery, and this is a factor in this cost. Again though, America doesn't have a capitalist system.

While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

Largely correct, but again, nobody is defending the HMO bureaucracy agencies in the US. Medical decisions are always left up to doctors, but the costs of these decisions are dictated by governments with a fixed price.

If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one.

No, you get put on a list to wait for months for one.

There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery

Largely nonsense. Sure, if you have a major accident or heart attack in Canada, the emergency doctors will obviously attend to you first. "Reasonable" waits for specialist care? Could she be any more vague? It takes weeks/months to see many internal medical specialists, the figure is probably days in the US (again keeping in mind, they dont have free market care).

Not going to bother with the rest, I like the topic of discussion, but this is a far too simpleton article which focuses on Canada's total government system, vs. the US's largely government system.

Ironslave · Jun 27, 2009

Ryeland said:
Article doesn't really discuss free market healthcare, it just discusses the current state (not the ideologies) of both healthcare systems.

For sure, I don't think anybody will disagree that the US health care system is in shambles, but the answer isn't to look to Canada's.

Ryeland · Jun 27, 2009

Ironslave said:
For sure, I don't think anybody will disagree that the US health care system is in shambles, but the answer isn't to look to Canada's.

US healthcare is in really poor shape.

Canada isn't world's best by a long shot, but its not terrible. My father has leukemia and gets the attention he needs and opportunities for treatment he wouldn't have gotten south of the border. My aunt is going through chemo right now (after her double mastectomy) and all of her stuff got done right quick.

I will agree that wait times for specialists are pretty hefty, however they are called specialists for a reason.

Some of the stats on that article were dubious I agree, but it was decently thought out. I can't really blame the author for not fully understanding tax law, its crazy.

The interesting point i saw the amount of overhead costs associated with healthcare 1% in Canada as opposed to over 30 in the states.

Canada most certainly is more of a welfare state. Most conservatives right now are screaming "SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!" however socialism in itself is not a dirty word. I will not argue that Canada's welfare goes too far in many cases but that is the primary difference in Canadian and American culture, the perception of the collective and what social responsibilities are.

Canada's welfare state may not be a bad thing entirely. Canadians by and large enjoy a higher standard of health than their american counter-parts. Canada's education system allows less debt coming out of post secondary school. There are many benefits to it.

Ironslave · Jun 27, 2009

Ryeland said:
Canada isn't world's best by a long shot, but its not terrible. My father has leukemia and gets the attention he needs and opportunities for treatment he wouldn't have gotten south of the border. My aunt is going through chemo right now (after her double mastectomy) and all of her stuff got done right quick.

Sorry to hear about this, and I wish them the best of luck. I do know what this is like, both of my parents had cancer, but i'm not sure why they wouldn't have gotten the care they did south of the boarder?

I will agree that wait times for specialists are pretty hefty, however they are called specialists for a reason.

But, the wait times aren't the same in America as they are in Canada for specialists....

The interesting point i saw the amount of overhead costs associated with healthcare 1% in Canada as opposed to over 30 in the states.

This sounded very fishy, so I did some digging, and found where the author got her 31% figure... however, where she got 1% is beyond me (perhaps, she forgot to read the "6.7" after the "1" in "16.7".

Woolhandler S, Campbell T, Himmelstein DU. Costs of health care administration in the United States and Canada. N Engl J Med. 2003 Aug 21;349(8):768-75.

After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada.

Canadians by and large enjoy a higher standard of health than their american counter-parts.

So many factors involved here. I think the fact that Americans have a lower level of health is more related to their unhealthy lifestyles, which on average are probably the worst in the world. They're more likely to not only get sick, but more aggressive forms of the illness as well.

I'm actually going to write a letter to the editor of this paper tomorrow, and call out that ho on flat out lying about the administrative costs. :icon_ninja:

miamiracing · Jun 27, 2009

glad i only pay $70 a month for health and dental insurance :spy:

tim290280 · Jun 27, 2009

IS said:
There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery

Click to expand...

Largely nonsense. Sure, if you have a major accident or heart attack in Canada, the emergency doctors will obviously attend to you first. "Reasonable" waits for specialist care? Could she be any more vague? It takes weeks/months to see many internal medical specialists, the figure is probably days in the US (again keeping in mind, they dont have free market care).

Not going to bother with the rest, I like the topic of discussion, but this is a far too simpleton article which focuses on Canada's total government system, vs. the US's largely government system.

Canada sounds very similar to Australia in terms of government and health care. Although we have a much larger country and far fewer people so taxes will always be high here.

ANyway point I was going to make was that our public system is very similar and if you need any form of scan, procedure or operation then you actually go on a list. This list is on a needs basis. Plenty of people with injuries and cancers have been made to wait years for their turn because it isn't regarded as urgent. Of course this time spent waiting decreases their quality of life, their chance of recovery and their future health prospects.

Private health care in Australia is the only way to roll. :thumbsup2:

Tech · Jun 28, 2009

Socialized medicine ftw!

the government knows whats best for us.

MuscleMecca Crew

Duality · Jun 28, 2009

ok it's normal for a son to resemble his father, but this is crazy. he even sounds like him and puts the same emphasis in his speech patterns. it's like Ron Paul got in a time machine.

Bulkboy · Jun 28, 2009

i liked this guy's take on free market healthcare...

I’m going to keep this short and simple so that everyone gets it. The Health Care system is NOT and CANNOT be a free market system.

Some ‘conservatives’ (read, pro-oligarchy folk) have tried to redefine the term ‘free market’ to mean only one that doesn’t involve “government interference.” I can’t blame them, I guess, everyone wants to make their position sound as good and as reasonable as possible.

It’s false, however.

A free market isn’t just a market lacking government regulation. Here is the ACTUAL definition: A “free market” is a market in which sellers, under no undue pressure to sell, proffer their goods/services to buyers who are under no compulsion to buy. This is critical; change any element of this formula and you are no longer talking about free market.

Health care is not (and cannot become) a free market for two reasons:
1) Supply is artificially restricted by the government and the AMA. The scarcity of medical care drives up the cost. This is completely artificial. You might say “Well, they have to! You can’t have just anyone practicing medicine!” Fine, I agree, but that means that health care CANNOT EVER be a free market, because of the artificial restriction of supply.
2) Not only is supply artificially low, but buyers are under EXTREME compulsion to buy. What, that thought never occurred to you!?!? If you need lifesaving medical care, you either get it or you die! End of story.

No free market exists in health care. And you just agreed in item one that you cannot turn it into a free market.

You could change item 1 by stripping the AMA of its ability to tell medical schools how many doctors they can graduate every year AND letting anyone sell medical services who wants to do so. So then you could choose between the really expensive guy who went to medical school and Joe the Plumber who sells antibiotics out of the back of his truck. This would take care of half the problem.

BUT, you can’t do anything about item 2: People will still need lifesaving care and as long as it is a LIFE OR DEATH NEED, the medical health care system will NEVER follow free market rules.

Sometimes people say, “yeah but we need food, too! And you don’t want the government regulating that.” Food has multiple sources and you can even grow your own, so supply isn’t artificially limited as it is with healthcare. And even so, the government does, in fact, regulate prices through farm subsidies and other methods. We have a cheap food policy in the USA. Some people think that’s bad. Whatever, we need an affordable healthcare policy and it needs to be effective in balancing the artificial (but necessary) limitation on supply.

No free market in healthcare and the people who say they want a free market really don’t (they still want limited doctors, limited medicines, etc.) so what we have is a monopolistic utility, [”monopolistic” because the government & AMA tell you who can provide the services and a “utility” because consumers NEED and are compelled to buy the services from only a few government-approved providers]. As with all monopolistic utilities consumers have no choice except to pay whatever price is demanded.

Now in most other utilities, government as the representatives of the people recognizes the unfair power that the supplier has over the consumer and acts to tightly regulate pricing. For medicine, those with an agenda having NOTHING to do with anyone’s best interest are still trying to pretend that there is some kind of free market solution.

It’s bullshit. When you figure out a way we can all buy medicine from our local supermarket in the same way we buy potato chips AND you figure out a system where people are NEVER compelled to seek medical care to LIVE - THEN and only then will you have free market healthcare.

The rest is all pure phony bullshit spewed by people who only care about profit-taking for the super rich and don’t give a shit about the average person. It’s a fact, and I just proved it!

Some probably-paid talk show callers have been claiming expertise and saying that the problem with health care is that people get too much of it. =The solution, these ersatz listeners claim, is to get rid of medicare and all government price controls and let the “free market” decide. Yes, that’s right, people are dying every day for lack of health care - and America is the ONLY industrialized nation where that happens - and the conservative “solution” is to make health care even more expensive so that you stupid consumers won’t use it as much!!!

Look, those of you who are driven by ideology need to understand that free market rules are a bit like the laws of thermodynamics: Yes, they work - but they apply only in a vacuum, under ideal conditions that seldom exist in real life. You need to blow off the ideology and start looking at reality. We’ll all be better off if you do.

Ironslave · Jun 28, 2009

Bulkboy said:
i liked this guy's take on free market healthcare...

Of course you do, if you had your way they'd replace hospital beds with these.

lifterdead · Jun 28, 2009

Having lived in Canada and dealt with their health care system numerous times (unfortunately), I'm fairly biased on this issue. Anyways, I'll post my rant later.

Suffice to say it ain't the best system out there.

Ryeland · Jun 28, 2009

Ironslave said:
Sorry to hear about this, and I wish them the best of luck. I do know what this is like, both of my parents had cancer, but i'm not sure why they wouldn't have gotten the care they did south of the boarder?

But, the wait times aren't the same in America as they are in Canada for specialists....

They would have got the healthcare in the states, that was mainly to point out that when you need healthcare in Canada you get it. The cost of the treatments of those two would have been incredible in the states. One of the things I am very thankful for is that my dad doesn't have to worry about renewing his health insurance policy, American insurers would not look kindly on a man with leukemia. I was simply saying that in Canada I enjoy a good piece of mind that if i need healthcare i can get it without having to sweat the cost.

The american wait times are better for specialists for sure.

Go for it, call out the Denver Post, I am interested to see their response. Like I mentioned in my first post, the stats are dubious.

Tim, Canada has a similar population density to Austrailia (Canada: 3.2/km^2, Austrailia: 2.83/km^2) so there is no reason the Canadian system couldn't work in Austrailia. I believe Canada also shares the same time of population distribution with Austrailia as well (most people in urban centers, with the remainder widely spread).

Lifterdead, sorry about your bad experiences bro, hopefully you are all fixed up.

Bulkboy · Jun 28, 2009

Ironslave said:
Of course you do, if you had your way they'd replace hospital beds with these.

well, i guess any bed is better than no bed at all

Tech · Jun 28, 2009

"What we need to do is begin removing Government regulation from the delivery of health care services to the American people. Many years ago prior to the massive government intervention in healthcare that came in the 1970's and accelerated greatly thereafter under Democrat and Republican regimes the same, what has happened is that the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed. It is no coincidence that the cost of healthcare has skyrocketed at the same time that the amount of Government regulation, red tape and bureaucracy has gone through the roof. There is a direct relationship between the two."

Ironslave · Jun 28, 2009

K, first, to respond to the article Bulkboy posted.

Bulkboy said:
A free market isn’t just a market lacking government regulation. Here is the ACTUAL definition: A “free market” is a market in which sellers, under no undue pressure to sell, proffer their goods/services to buyers who are under no compulsion to buy. This is critical; change any element of this formula and you are no longer talking about free market.

Really? You'd think if someone is going to provide a definition, they'd provide a source for the definition!

Here's the first definition in a paper which came up in a search in google scholar: A free market is defined by (I) ownership by individuals of exchangeable items-services, resources, or goods, (2) the absence of central control (exerted by persons purporting to represent the general public, but external to the transactions in question) over the terms on which they are to be exchanged, and (3) effective prohibition of force and fraud in the exchanging of those items. (This prohibition may be either by internal, moral means or aided by external enforcement procedures, which in turn may be either private or public.)

It's pretty funny the author claims that conservatives redefine the term for their own purposes, yet he does the exact same thing, lol, what a douche. Anyways, regardless, I'm not going to discuss 'bickering' about subtle definitions about what is/isn't free market.

It’s bullshit. When you figure out a way we can all buy medicine from our local supermarket in the same way we buy potato chips AND you figure out a system where people are NEVER compelled to seek medical care to LIVE - THEN and only then will you have free market healthcare.

I changed my mind, I need to comment. This guy is a complete utter moron. Is anybody going to claim that airplane companies aren't free market for people who travel? (because, um, i mean, we could walk!)... this point is stupid.

The rest is all pure phony bullshit spewed by people who only care about profit-taking for the super rich and don’t give a shit about the average person. It’s a fact, and I just proved it!

Is he that delusional? Did you write this Bulkboy? :music: ... he has proved NOTHING... all he is doing is incoherent ramblings which nit pick over a definition... and he has the nerve to claim he has proved that people who want the government out of health care are super rich evil people? Give me a break.

Some probably-paid talk show callers have been claiming expertise and saying that the problem with health care is that people get too much of it. =The solution, these ersatz listeners claim, is to get rid of medicare and all government price controls and let the “free market” decide.Yes, that’s right, people are dying every day for lack of health care - and America is the ONLY industrialized nation where that happens - and the conservative “solution” is to make health care even more expensive so that you stupid consumers won’t use it as much!!!

Probably paid? :umwtf:

.... who the hell is dying every day because of lack of health care? Though, wouldn't it make sense that if people weren't abusing the system, physicians wouldn't be tied up with hypochondriacs and could help those who need it?

Look, those of you who are driven by ideology need to understand that free market rules are a bit like the laws of thermodynamics: Yes, they work - but they apply only in a vacuum, under ideal conditions that seldom exist in real life. You need to blow off the ideology and start looking at reality. We’ll all be better off if you do.[/I]

This guy's article is like a vacuum, it fucking sucks.

Ironslave · Jun 28, 2009

Ryeland said:
They would have got the healthcare in the states, that was mainly to point out that when you need healthcare in Canada you get it. The cost of the treatments of those two would have been incredible in the states.

In the current system, sure. They essentially have the worst of both worlds, with government and corporate monopoly cooperation. If there was free market care, costs would go down, just like they have with competing companies in laser eye surgery (not to mention, the competition forces quality of care to improve!) With the money they'd save on taxes throughout their lives, I can basically guarantee that they would have more money now with a free market care system.

Ryeland · Jun 28, 2009

Ironslave said:
In the current system, sure. They essentially have the worst of both worlds, with government and corporate monopoly cooperation. If there was free market care, costs would go down, just like they have with competing companies in laser eye surgery (not to mention, the competition forces quality of care to improve!) With the money they'd save on taxes throughout their lives, I can basically guarantee that they would have more money now with a free market care system.

I highly doubt that IS. My dad's Leukemia meds, Gleevec, one of the dozen or so pills he takes everyday would run him about $9000/month. I challenge you to find anyone besides multi-millionaire that can afford $9000/month on pills to live. I get that there was a lot of R&D that went into these pills, but $9000 a month! Come on.

The pharmaceutical industry is a prime example of what can happen if the market is left to its own devices. I am not saying that 100% socialism is a good thing at all. But I am saying that the government keeping its hands out of industry doesn't always make things better.

Sharp, Samsung and LG were busted a few months ago on price fixing of their LCD panels. What is to stop healthcare providers from doing the same?

I am not saying Canada has the best system in the world, I am saying Public health care is better for the citizens overall.

Canadian Health Care vs American

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