Why do bodybuilders continue training the same?

I made a post in a thread a few minutes ago that Jay Cutler should take some time off after this Olympia. But, he'll probably do his usual back in the gym high volume/high rep, 8-12 repetitions, and 20-30 sets.

Okay, I think we can agree his usual routine is as follows...

6 days of training each week (Sunday off)
High volume (20-30 sets)
High heavy reps (8-15)
Weight usually sticks around the same

Imagine if rather than doing this, he went back looking for his post-competition rebound gains by lowering his volume a bit (giving his body a little break). So, rather than going 6 days a week, switching to 5, and lowering the volume to about 15-20 sets. After 6-8 weeks of this type of training, go another 6-8 weeks where he only trains four days a week, but drastically lowers volume (8-12 sets total) putting all-out intensity into every set, with low reps (3-6), going as heavy as possible. His strength gains would go through the roof, and in all seriousness if would be giving his body a MUCH needed break from all that volume that is doing pretty much nothing for his size gains these days. Obviously after 8 weeks of this strength training, he could go back to the 15-20 sets (8-12 reps) he was doing after the show as a huge shock to the body, and a great way to overload the muscle after his new and improved strength. After about 6 more weeks, switch back to his usual 20-30 sets to overload the body again! Imagine the strength/size gains he could achieve by continuously switching up his routine like this on a consistent basis rather than the same routine, same diet, same reps, same exercises ALL YEAR ROUND! (like he does)

For example, we've got Turk on a similar program right now. This is what his training looks like since his last show where he picked up his pro card...

First 8 weeks (8-12 reps, 15-20 sets, hypertrophy workouts, medium-to-high volume)
Next 7 weeks (4-6 reps, max_ot, 10-12 sets, strength training, low volume)

Now it changes by every third week.
Week 1 - (4-6 reps early in the workout, then finish in the 6-8 range, strength week)
Week 2 - (8-12 reps, hypertrophy week)
Week 3 - (8-12 reps, hypertrophy week, same as week 2)
REPEAT

Our plan is to eventually switch all 3 days to hypertrophy until his body adjusts to it, then switch it up to this type routine....

Week 1 - (Shock week, all drop sets, super-sets, giant-sets)
Week 2 - (8-12 reps, normal hypertrophy week)
Week 3 - (8-12 reps, same as week 2, another hypertrophy week)

Once we feel he's not achieving mass gains through changing his diet on this program, we'll switch it back to more strength training.



It's obvious guy's like Dexter Jackson, Jay Cutler, and many others have plateau'd very badly over the years. It makes no sense to me that they continue with the same training for so many years, never changing anything. That's the point of this thread.

I'm sorry for the rant, I'm running late for the gym and don't have time to double check what I wrote or to proofread it.

Take notes Dennis Wolf!

Wouldn't it be great if he did something to fix those asymmetry issues too!

tim290280 said:

Wouldn't it be great if he did something to fix those asymmetry issues too!

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How can he ? I really wonder how could he fix his leg asymmetry.

tim290280 said:

Wouldn't it be great if he did something to fix those asymmetry issues too!

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That almost has nothing to do with my post.

Flex said:

That almost has nothing to do with my post.

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Sorry.

Yes I agree that BBers do seem to find a certain way of training and stick with it. They then get surprised when they do something different and it gives them amazing results. They might have gotten the same thing out of doing nothing as well.

More specifically to your protocol: your essentially talking about periodising the volume, which is a great idea. Add to that a bit of a change in the amount of low rep work or speed work and could completely change the playing field.

Zigurd said:

How can he ? I really wonder how could he fix his leg asymmetry.

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Instead of those lameo leg ext and stuff he could actually do some split squats, single leg stuff of any sort, get off that bloody smith machine for squats, etc, etc, etc.

Unless it is nerve damage he should see great results actually trying to balance things up. Did wonders for me after my knee reconstruction.

tim290280 said:

Sorry.

Yes I agree that BBers do seem to find a certain way of training and stick with it. They then get surprised when they do something different and it gives them amazing results. They might have gotten the same thing out of doing nothing as well.

More specifically to your protocol: your essentially talking about periodising the volume, which is a great idea. Add to that a bit of a change in the amount of low rep work or speed work and could completely change the playing field.

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Yes, the body adjusts to everything you throw at it. So, rather than continuing the same routine for years on end, progressively overload your muscles into growth. If Jay Cutler is doing 315 on barbell rows for 10 reps, then 2 years later doing 315 on barbell rows for 10 reps....he's basically asking to look the same. In less than five years Turk is going to be stronger than Jay Cutler as a natural. Not because of genetics, but because he's worked towards it.

The way I look at it, if you're always keeping everything the same...you're a fucking pussy.

What a great post/thread, Flex.

I fully agree with you but think about it:

Turk might be a genetic freak, but he needs to burst his ass (and you your mind) to gain... what? 5-10lbs each offseason... and this guys move a finger and they grow like mad.

I think that's the main reason they do not change his split. *cough* Dennis "The Lazy Boy" Wolf *cough*

mvsf1 said:

What a great post/thread, Flex.

I fully agree with you but think about it:

Turk might be a genetic freak, but he needs to burst his ass (and you your mind) to gain... what? 5-10lbs each offseason... and this guys move a finger and they grow like mad.

I think that's the main reason they do not change his split. *cough* Dennis "The Lazy Boy" Wolf *cough*

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But the whole point is that too many bodybuilders come in the same size every single year.

For the bodybuilders that take off an entire year from competing, I look at that as a huge failure.

Flex said:

Yes, the body adjusts to everything you throw at it. So, rather than continuing the same routine for years on end, progressively overload your muscles into growth. If Jay Cutler is doing 315 on barbell rows for 10 reps, then 2 years later doing 315 on barbell rows for 10 reps....he's basically asking to look the same.

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Exactly. This is why plate mates are probably my most highly recommended training accessory, those who want to keep making gains need to keep progressively overloading, keep a journal of everything, and then try and beat it somehow next time.

Hardly any pro does any of this, they're just content in their ways and misinformation they're given.

Exactly IS thats why guys like Dorian changed/grew every year...tracking workouts, diet etc year round hes probably the only one i can think of that did this and it showed most years

Beau said:

Exactly IS thats why guys like Dorian changed/grew every year...tracking workouts, diet etc year round hes probably the only one i can think of that did this and it showed most years

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true, but dorian also suffered major, career stopping injuries. cutler on the other hand has never suffered a major injury or tear from what i know. one could argue that this has alot to do with the way he trains(not much failure training, high volume and reps). and sure, i agree that progressive overload is key in order to grow bigger and stronger. but this isnt always a consern for a pro bber. cutler for instance is already gigantic, and i think its of more consern to him to maintain and refine his physique. muscle maturity comes with years in the gym. gotta remember the human body has its limits for how much mass it can sustain and maintain. if cutler where to add more mass, im afraid that would seriously affect him negatively. like ronnie, when he tried to come in at 300 lbs at all costs. the bigger they get, the more the waistlines expand, and chances of injuries increases and tears as u push more and more extreme weights in the gym.

Bulkboy said:

true, but dorian also suffered major, career stopping injuries. cutler on the other hand has never suffered a major injury or tear from what i know. one could argue that this has alot to do with the way he trains(not much failure training, high volume and reps). and sure, i agree that progressive overload is key in order to grow bigger and stronger. but this isnt always a consern for a pro bber. cutler for instance is already gigantic, and i think its of more consern to him to maintain and refine his physique. muscle maturity comes with years in the gym. gotta remember the human body has its limits for how much mass it can sustain and maintain. if cutler where to add more mass, im afraid that would seriously affect him negatively. like ronnie, when he tried to come in at 300 lbs at all costs. the bigger they get, the more the waistlines expand, and chances of injuries increases and tears as u push more and more extreme weights in the gym.

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Some fair points, but it's a huge cop out to say that these guys train the same year in year out to avoid injury. Dorian for example tore his biceps doing underhand barbell rows.... that's just not a smart exercise to do because of injury risk. The bicep isn't meant to take that kind of extreme poundage, which is why when you see guys tear a bicep on deadlifts, they're almost always doing an over/under grip, with the under grip arm being the bicep that tears.

The reason their waste line expands is almost 99% of the time because of the drugs they take. This is probably partially why a bodybuilder like Wolf trains like such a pussy, because he's thinking that these exercises will make his waist big and blocky, it won't.

Ironslave said:

Some fair points, but it's a huge cop out to say that these guys train the same year in year out to avoid injury. Dorian for example tore his biceps doing underhand barbell rows.... that's just not a smart exercise to do because of injury risk. The bicep isn't meant to take that kind of extreme poundage, which is why when you see guys tear a bicep on deadlifts, they're almost always doing an over/under grip, with the under grip arm being the bicep that tears.

The reason their waste line expands is almost 99% of the time because of the drugs they take. This is probably partially why a bodybuilder like Wolf trains like such a pussy, because he's thinking that these exercises will make his waist big and blocky, it won't.

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i agree that progressive overload is the main culprit for growth. and some bbers(namely dexter jackson, and other smaller guys) should seriously heed this in order to add more muscle. what i was referring to was cutler, and the fact that when ure already as big as he is, adding more mass isnt always easy or even desireable. he did change his training this offseason, doing that fst-7 crap, so some changes he does make. and volume as he says himself has always been what worked for him. guess he doesent want to experiment with what got him where he is.

also, i agree drugs have alot to do with the expanding waistlines, but i do also think that when u get to a certain size, ur waist expands somewhat when trying to get bigger. when u get to the point where ure 300+ lbs in the offseason, u have to take in ridicolous amounts of calories in order to keep growing and taking in all that food is gonna make ur midsection larger as well. im just talking from my own experience, my waist went from 88 cm to 75 cm when i dieted down last summer.

about the underhand rows. ive just started doing those, and i love em. i feel they hit my back extremely efficiently. u say these are not worth doing. cuz i just feel these alot more in my lats than the overhand version. i also do deadlifts with an alternate grip, just because i dont want to use straps. now im under the impression that straining a bicep with such a grip often comes down to lousy form. i think its essential to prevent urself from almost, say curling the bar. to essentially keep ur arms straight when deadlifting. about the underhand rows, ive done these 2-3 times now, and i cant say i feel em much in my biceps actually. i feel they really destroy my lats though...

ur saying one should deadlift with a double overhand grip then? do u do em with straps? cuz i seriously cant hold shit if i use a double overhand grip without straps on deads. i can handle maybe 140 kg for reps, whereas with the under/over grip i can handle 180-200 kg for reps.

Yeah, changing up a training routine to put on more mass and someone's waistline don't go hand and hand Bulkboy. There's 2 common reasons for that, which are drugs and diet. I didn't say anything about increasing insulin and growth hormone, I also did not say anything about increasing carbs by 200 grams a day. All I said is to change the training routine once your body adapts to your normal one.

Also, Gaining more mass would only help the way jay's waist appears on stage.

Bulkboy said:

ur saying one should deadlift with a double overhand grip then? do u do em with straps? cuz i seriously cant hold shit if i use a double overhand grip without straps on deads. i can handle maybe 140 kg for reps, whereas with the under/over grip i can handle 180-200 kg for reps.

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Layne Norton, natural bodybuilder, overhand grip, no straps. 690 pounds.

New APA record.

Flex said:

Layne Norton, natural bodybuilder, overhand grip, no straps. 690 pounds.

New APA record.

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sweeeeet. mhm, that convinced me. im going back to the overhand grip. without straps. just gotta buy some chalk i guess and get going.

lol at Layne doing the jumping high five at the end of the video...

Ironslave, I believe you've posted it before but it'd take me forever to find the threads.

What back exercises do you recommend?

Bulkboy said:

i agree that progressive overload is the main culprit for growth. and some bbers(namely dexter jackson, and other smaller guys) should seriously heed this in order to add more muscle. what i was referring to was cutler, and the fact that when ure already as big as he is, adding more mass isnt always easy or even desireable. he did change his training this offseason, doing that fst-7 crap, so some changes he does make. and volume as he says himself has always been what worked for him. guess he doesent want to experiment with what got him where he is.

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He didn't change his shape whatsoever... he just came in much leaner! Nothing whatsoever to do with fst-7, or any other training program. Besides, Jay is the biggest bodybuilder there is, Flex mentioned Wolf, and many other bodybuilders who don't progress in muscle size, though they need to... mentioning Cutler isn't relevant.

also, i agree drugs have alot to do with the expanding waistlines, but i do also think that when u get to a certain size, ur waist expands somewhat when trying to get bigger. when u get to the point where ure 300+ lbs in the offseason, u have to take in ridicolous amounts of calories in order to keep growing and taking in all that food is gonna make ur midsection larger as well. im just talking from my own experience, my waist went from 88 cm to 75 cm when i dieted down last summer.

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Again, nothing to do with this thread, way out of context.

about the underhand rows. ive just started doing those, and i love em. i feel they hit my back extremely efficiently. u say these are not worth doing. cuz i just feel these alot more in my lats than the overhand version. i also do deadlifts with an alternate grip, just because i dont want to use straps. now im under the impression that straining a bicep with such a grip often comes down to lousy form. i think its essential to prevent urself from almost, say curling the bar. to essentially keep ur arms straight when deadlifting. about the underhand rows, ive done these 2-3 times now, and i cant say i feel em much in my biceps actually. i feel they really destroy my lats though...

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They are a good exercise, but there gets to be a point where the bicep isn't meant to handle that heavy of a load, so you're running a risk of injury. Again, look at the videos of people tearing biceps on deadlifts, almost always using hook grip, with the underhand grip being the one that tears. Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk the way a bicep tear can ruin a physique, and put you out of commission for so long....

ur saying one should deadlift with a double overhand grip then? do u do em with straps? cuz i seriously cant hold shit if i use a double overhand grip without straps on deads. i can handle maybe 140 kg for reps, whereas with the under/over grip i can handle 180-200 kg for reps.

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I would advise double overhand, yes....do your warm up sets without straps, and do straps for your heavy work set... then do other things to train your grip and forearms... it's as simple as that.

I'll start a new thread on bicep tears and deadlifts....

Arcane1129 said:

Ironslave, I believe you've posted it before but it'd take me forever to find the threads.

What back exercises do you recommend?

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Tons, deads, rack deads, chins/pullups, pull downs, BB-rows, T-bar rows, seated cable rows.... I just don't like the thought of using a heavy weight with an underhand grip because of injury risk.

Starting a new thread to put this back on track.