Alternative diet

[Svartberg]

Hello!

I was thinking of changing my diet, mainly my proteinsources. Instead of eating meat 3-4 times in the day, I'll only be doing it once, just before bed. To replace meat, I'll be drinking casein and whey shakes (50/50 mix), whey to put my body in anabolic state, casein so that it remains in anticatabolic, until next meal. While animalprotein takes a long time to be consumed, I find it to be far more effective eating this before bed or if you have more than 5-6 hours between meals. Also, to keep my iron levels to optimum, I'll be eating 2-300 grams of strawberries. What does people think of this?

 

[BigBen]

I think it is usually better to eat the whole food as opposed to using a supplement. Total calories are what put you in a net anabolic(tissue synthesizing state) or a net catabolic(tissue wasting) state. Protein consumption is what is going to effect your nitrogen retention, and if you want skeletal muscle growth, then you want a positive nitrogen retention.

Why are you choosing to stop eating whole foods and use shakes in place of them? What I am getting is that you are using liquid proteins in place of whole food proteins because liquids digest quicker, and they do. Whey protein digests very quickly and protein in general dehydrates b/c it is dry weight in cells. It is like if your body is a glass of water and you keep adding sand(protein) to it. The net amount of water is decreasing bc the amount of sand(protein) is increasing. The solution is becoming dehydrated compared to what it was. SO if you do choose this route drink a lot f water with your shakes, 8-16 oz. Also how much fat is in each one of your meals b/c fat can slow digestion down exponentially depending on how much fat is being ingested.

Also try getting your iron from dark green leafy vegetables like kale, collard greens, and the like b/c they are more nutrient dense foods and good sources of calcium. Calcium is the mineral largely responsible for regulating the PH in your blood. When calcium is not present in your diet your bones are stripped of calcium and used to regulate blood PH.

Please tell me if my response benefitted you in any way, or if I provided any clarity relative to your situation.


Thank You,
Ben

 

[Svartberg]

Thank you Ben! I am not quitting whole foods, just the meat (except from tuna, I'll eat a can just before bed, and occasionally eggs, just for the aminoacids - also drinking a litre of milk, so calcium is covered I'd say).
Well, I see a mix of whey and casein would have an average digestion time of 3-5 hours, am i right? Which is pretty much the time I have between my meals. But, if I ate meat instead, the glass would still have added sand, just slower - how is this beneficial? Is there even any difference(in relation to building muscle), except I'll have to drink lots of water? (which I by the way, already do.).

Sorry if my english is a little bit confuzzling and hard to make sense of

 

[BigBen]

Digestion time is relevant not only to what kinds of foods you are eating but how much you are eating also. I cannot say that 3-5 hours is the time whey and casein takes to digest bc i do not know how much you are consuming and what other foods you are eating with it.

But eating the whole foods is being suggested over and over again more beneficial than supplementing the nutrients found in those whole foods, individually. Protein powders are great when they are used as a tool as part of a whole food diet. When you start making them the majority of your diet you start taking risks bc you are consuming a supplement, one nutrient by itself, and are not consuming the entire food. So what is the difference? A lot of whole food proteins have creatine in them also, it is a very small amount, but it is present. Also the trend that follows is when whole food proteins or whole food in general is replaced with a liquid the patient/person/athlete does lose weight. That is a popular way to drop the weight of morbidly obese patients quickly is to put them on an all liquid diet.

There is a benefit to the protein entering your blood stream slower. Your body will only use protein for muscle building up to a certain point, and that point varies depending on how much lean tissue a person has and hormone levels, but when to many amino acids enter the blood to fast they are not used for structure building, instead, the amino acids enter the cellular respiration process and are used to synthesize ATP(cellular energy).

So ideally feeding your body with smaller meals more frequently would keep you leaner and potentially build more muscle. The reason i say potentially is b/c carrying excess body fat can actually effect the shape of the receptor sites on your cells, and this will effect the ability that hormones are able to have on that cell. This is less of a concern unless a person is very overweight. One example of the denaturing of receptor sites on cells is Type 2 Diabetes. Eating smaller meals more frequently more of your food will be used in a beneficial manner and less of it will be stored as excess. You should be leaner and have a bit more muscle eating the same amount of calories in smaller portions more frequently than you would eating those calories in larger meals more spread out. Small meals have different metabolic effects than large meals. When your blood is flooded with to many nutrients they are more likely to be stored as fat or in fat or excreted depending on what the nutrient is.(carbohydrate, fat, protein, vitamin, mineral). When fewer nutrients enter your blood more frequently they are more likely to be used in a way that is metabolically beneficial. The peak amounts that your body will process and use to build tissue and replenish glycogen is dependent on how much lean tissue a person has and is a consequence of hormone levels also.

BUT this is your choice. I would keep the protein powders as supplements and keep eating egg whites and steak as my main whole food proteins.

I would be very interested in you updating this thread with your progress if you decides to make protein powders the majority or your protein food sources.

 

[tim290280]

If you are concerned about eating meat because of the time it takes to digest then you are on the wrong track.

Meats are the most nutrient dense foods we consume. E.g. you were talking about iron: one 100g steak has the same iron content as several kilos of spinach (one of the richest iron sources in vegetables). You can't just simply look at the digestion time of meat and say it is sub-optimal.

 

[The Creator]

I'm with Ben on this one!

 

[Svartberg]

Digestion time is relevant not only to what kinds of foods you are eating but how much you are eating also. I cannot say that 3-5 hours is the time whey and casein takes to digest bc i do not know how much you are consuming and what other foods you are eating with it.

It'll mostly be complex carbs, one of the meals has oliveoil included. Do you really think that fats and carbs can influence digestionrate by up to hours? Are there any formula for calculating that? It must differ from people to people as well.

But eating the whole foods is being suggested over and over again more beneficial than supplementing the nutrients found in those whole foods, individually. Protein powders are great when they are used as a tool as part of a whole food diet. When you start making them the majority of your diet you start taking risks bc you are consuming a supplement, one nutrient by itself, and are not consuming the entire food. So what is the difference? A lot of whole food proteins have creatine in them also, it is a very small amount, but it is present. Also the trend that follows is when whole food proteins or whole food in general is replaced with a liquid the patient/person/athlete does lose weight. That is a popular way to drop the weight of morbidly obese patients quickly is to put them on an all liquid diet.

Well, the thing about meat is that it 'only' contains protein, iron and the essential aminoacids. Eating strawberries with this routine, I'd still get enough iron, and I'd also get the aminoacids through my can of tuna at night and the occasional eggs. What difference does it make, if I eat these nutrients seperated, and not through one food?
I don't see creatine as a reason for eating meat - but I suppose you mean its a vital nutrient - I have it covered with my tuna. If you're thinking large amounts of creatine for a boost in strength, then I'll have no chance obtaining that through meat. I'm a nonresponder anyway.
How does people lose weight with liquid foods? I suppose its vessel, and not fat they're losing?

There is a benefit to the protein entering your blood stream slower. Your body will only use protein for muscle building up to a certain point, and that point varies depending on how much lean tissue a person has and hormone levels, but when to many amino acids enter the blood to fast they are not used for structure building, instead, the amino acids enter the cellular respiration process and are used to synthesize ATP(cellular energy).

Interesting. So you'd only recommend a different proteinsource before and after training, egg protein and whey for example? And in the morning I guess.
So you're saying that people with good genetics and someone who'd be classified as a very muscular person would make better use of this casein/whey routine?

I eat 5 meals on offdays, 6 on training days, but thats just whey and simple carbs intra WO. I've read that eating rather frequently (7-8) would cause many insulin spikes throughout the day, and your body would eventually "adapt" this too well, and slowly you'd become more and more tolerant towards insulin, and thus having a higher bloodsugar, gaining more fat than you would with less frequent meals. The difference is probably marginal, but can you confirm?


tim;

If you are concerned about eating meat because of the time it takes to digest then you are on the wrong track.

Care to elaborate?

Also the whole "whole foods contain ...." is rather irrelevant to a certain point. For now, I'd like to discuss the main subject

 

[BigBen]

I am acknowledging your response and I will reply. I am very busy at the moment.

Ben

 

[tim290280]

It'll mostly be complex carbs, one of the meals has oliveoil included. Do you really think that fats and carbs can influence digestionrate by up to hours? Are there any formula for calculating that? It must differ from people to people as well.

Yes. Digestion time from combined sources dramatically alters.

Well, the thing about meat is that it 'only' contains protein, iron and the essential aminoacids. Eating strawberries with this routine, I'd still get enough iron, and I'd also get the aminoacids through my can of tuna at night and the occasional eggs. What difference does it make, if I eat these nutrients seperated, and not through one food?

No, not really. By increasing digestion time you increase the efficiency of processing. So more complex foods deliver greater nutritional benefits.

tim;


Care to elaborate?

Pretty self explanatory. You are worried about how quickly things digest rather than eating properly. Meat, vegetables and fruit are the cornerstones of a diet. Supplements are not sources of nutrition, they are top ups. You are proposing to chop things up into bits and pieces and hope to have all the bases covered.

Also the whole "whole foods contain ...." is rather irrelevant to a certain point. For now, I'd like to discuss the main subject

No, no it isn't irrelevant. You are largely ignoring a heap of stuff with this way of thinking.

 

[BigBen]

Thank you Tim.

 

[tim290280]

Thank you Tim.

With our powers combined we are Benim!

 

[Svartberg]

Yes. Digestion time from combined sources dramatically alters.

So does carbs speed up the digestion process, while fats slows it down? Would it be beneficial to place my fat intake in the morning and when I go to bed? In the morning, because, the next meal I'll be having, is 4-5 hours later, and before bed is pretty selfexplanatory. Or should I spread it out on all my meals, in order to digest it properly and not eat like 40-50 grams of fats in a meal (with the beforementioned method). I'd just like to exploit the fact how it (supposedly) slows down digestion time as much as you're saying.

No, not really. By increasing digestion time you increase the efficiency of processing. So more complex foods deliver greater nutritional benefits.

You didn't answer my question thoroughly, unless I am misunderstanding something. By 'complex foods', do you mean slow released protein (from meat) or foods with a varied amount of nutrients (minerals, vitamines, etc.), if so, that would answer my question. So hypothetically, if I took my C-vitamine pill and cut it in 3 pieces and ate one piece every next 3 meals, would it be more efficient than eating the entire pill in the morning? You don't have to go into details on this one, just a yes or no, because I might be completly off track.

Pretty self explanatory. You are worried about how quickly things digest rather than eating properly. Meat, vegetables and fruit are the cornerstones of a diet. Supplements are not sources of nutrition, they are top ups. You are proposing to chop things up into bits and pieces and hope to have all the bases covered.

From what part of what I wrote did you conclude, that I did not intend to be eating properly? I won't bother replying on most of this, sorry. Replacing meat with casein and whey 3 times a day doesn't make my entire diet a complete disaster, especially not if I'll have the most important nutrients of meat covered with other foods. The 'only' thing I'll be missing is the animalprotein, which is the mainpoint of this discussion, please stick to it.

No, no it isn't irrelevant. You are largely ignoring a heap of stuff with this way of thinking.

I'm not trying to be a douche by saying this, but please explain what this 'heap of stuff' is?

Thank you for the replies so far.

 

[BigBen]

Lol @ Benim

So does carbs speed up the digestion process, while fats slows it down? Would it be beneficial to place my fat intake in the morning and when I go to bed? In the morning, because, the next meal I'll be having, is 4-5 hours later, and before bed is pretty selfexplanatory. Or should I spread it out on all my meals, in order to digest it properly and not eat like 40-50 grams of fats in a meal (with the beforementioned method). I'd just like to exploit the fact how it (supposedly) slows down digestion time as much as you're saying.

The more food you eat the more digestion slows down. FIber, fat and protein all slow down digestion at different rates. Fat slows digestion the most. I think it would be best for you to write down your diet so we could critique it as a whole as opposed to asking "in the dark" questions and allowing you to piece it together your self. I would definitely not eat 40-50g of any kind of fat in one meal.

didn't answer my question thoroughly, unless I am misunderstanding something. By 'complex foods', do you mean slow released protein (from meat) or foods with a varied amount of nutrients (minerals, vitamines, etc.), if so, that would answer my question. So hypothetically, if I took my C-vitamine pill and cut it in 3 pieces and ate one piece every next 3 meals, would it be more efficient than eating the entire pill in the morning? You don't have to go into details on this one, just a yes or no, because I might be completly off track.

Tim did a great job in my opinion. COmplex foods are foods that contain more than just a few nutrients. FOr example a supplement usually contains only one nutrient. Whole foods are complex foods because depending on the food they can contain a numerous amount of marco(carbs, proteins, fats) and micro nutrition(antioxidants, vitamins, miners, ect). B/c most single nutrient vitamins are over dosed, especially vitamin C, yes, if your vit C has something like 500% of your daily value then splitting it up into 3 individual dosages is better than taking it all at once. What would be even better would be to eat citrus fruit or kiwis instead of taking the vitamin. Here is why. Chemically vitamin C is the same in a pill as it is in a food, but the pill does not have all of the other nutrients that the food has, coenzymes and such, so the food and the pill will perform different metabolically b/c the food has more chemicals in it than does the pill. Now the pills are effective but again the foods have more nutrition that is beneficial than the pills do. You would do good to stop thinking of nutrition as a nutrient by itself because nutrients by themselves do not exist in nature. Like Tim said even meat contains iron and other fat soluble nutrients, and B vitamins depending on what kind of meat it is.

what part of what I wrote did you conclude, that I did not intend to be eating properly? I won't bother replying on most of this, sorry. Replacing meat with casein and whey 3 times a day doesn't make my entire diet a complete disaster, especially not if I'll have the most important nutrients of meat covered with other foods. The 'only' thing I'll be missing is the animalprotein, which is the mainpoint of this discussion, please stick to it.

I think that your idea of supplementing nutrients rather than getting nutrients from whole foods may be why we think you do not want to eat properly. Supplements should be used, only when necessary, as small tools as additions to a complete whole food diet. What is your issue with animal protein? Animal protein does one thing astonishingly well, and that is supply the necessary amino acids for growth. It also supplies some vitamins and minerals also. SO when you make a decision to remove animal protein from part of your diet and replace it with something less efficient it is a poor food choice. Now if animal foods cause some kind of physiological problem then the next best thing will have to do.

not trying to be a douche by saying this, but please explain what this 'heap of stuff' is? Thank you for the replies so far.

"The heap of stuff" refers to a few things. First the idea that supplements should remain just that, supplements to a whole food complete diet and only used as necessary. Secondly, it appears that you are only associating a certain food with one nutrient, for example animal proteins = proteins, or strawberries= iron, or spinach= vitamin K or vitamin A. Those foods have a lot more nutrition in them than just what they are associated with, and that nutrition does interact metabolically with your body in a way that supplies essential nutrition to your cells. So when those foods are removed the nutrients that those foods contain are also removed. Removing animal protein removes other essential nutrients for growth. For example if you eat steak you are getting more bang for your buck than had you went out and bought protein powder, creatine, and L-Leucine, iron, and in smaller amounts depending on how good the animals diet was fats soluble vitamins A, E, D, K. I agree with Tim on this one for sure.

Ben

 

[Svartberg]

Thank you so much! Your reply enlightened me a lot.