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  1. #4105
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    That substandard plot, story and characters can be alligned with a big budget spent on marketing and special effects to convince the general public that it is a movie worth seeing :dunnodude:

    As opposed to actually taking the time to craft a great movie, fill it with special effects, no-one will notice the difference at the box office. :talkhand:
    While the plot and characters aren't five star worthy, they aren't nearly as bad as something like twilight or transformers. And visually this is the first time 3d has really been used well.

    The bottom line is that, in some way, even if it is just visually this movie is connecting with audiences pretty well. While it hasn't done anything to advance the plots or characters of movies it has done a great deal to advance animation and 3d standards.


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  2. #4106
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    ^^ I'm not saying that style over substance isn't worth seeing, I'm just saying we shouldn't applaud it as something fantastic.


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  3. #4107
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    ^^ I'm not saying that style over substance isn't worth seeing, I'm just saying we shouldn't applaud it as something fantastic.
    It is something fantastic. Visually it is a new standard, a fantastic new world. This movie has set the bar on animation, 3D filming and real and imaginary character interaction.

    The movie did an excellent job creating a new world for people to enjoy. The plot was nothing new, the dialogue was not outstanding, the score was adequate but nothing incredible.

    Will this be an awesome home experience on your average tv? No it will not. What Avatar did was give people a reason to go back to the theatre, gave them something they couldn't hope to replicate with their home equipment. Something the movie industry hasn't been able to claim thus far.

    The world had not yet seen a 3d movie of this caliber, it was something new and exciting. I think it is fantastic in many regards. Just not in story.


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  4. #4108
    Mecca Super-***** dilatedmuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryeland View Post
    It is something fantastic. Visually it is a new standard, a fantastic new world. This movie has set the bar on animation, 3D filming and real and imaginary character interaction.

    The movie did an excellent job creating a new world for people to enjoy. The plot was nothing new, the dialogue was not outstanding, the score was adequate but nothing incredible.

    Will this be an awesome home experience on your average tv? No it will not. What Avatar did was give people a reason to go back to the theatre, gave them something they couldn't hope to replicate with their home equipment. Something the movie industry hasn't been able to claim thus far.

    The world had not yet seen a 3d movie of this caliber, it was something new and exciting. I think it is fantastic in many regards. Just not in story.
    I agree... I will be the first to admit that there was no depth to the movie and some may argue that they tried to slip some political mesages in there that obviously fell flat. But i had a blast watching it. The most entertainment and fun ive ever had in the theatre. The only thing that stopped me from watching it more then once was the length.


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    ^^ and ^^^

    Wonderful, fantastic. And in 5-10yrs time when special effects have advanced, the film will look dated and staid because they didn't put the effort into a great story to be coupled with the "visually groundbreaking".

    Don't believe me? Go and have a look at some of the old films special effects, especially those that were driven by special effects and see how cheesy they look now. Then take a look at the ones that bothered to couple that with a decent and engaging story and see how less dated the film and special effects look.

    Special effects are not a movie, they are merely a tool, like a camera, or a wardrobe dept. We cannot laud a film because of the fantastic use of technology, because that is merely an aid to the film, not its entirity.


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  6. #4110
    Mecca Super-***** dilatedmuscle's Avatar
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    ^^ its currently not 5-10 years from now... i remember how amazing some video games looked in the original playstation that look like crap now... but when they were first shown they were impressive and applauded.

    When the iphone came out it was amazing and its slowly losing popularity, 5-10 years from now, nobody will care about it but does that mean we cant appreciate it here and now?


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    Quote Originally Posted by dilatedmuscle View Post
    ^^ its currently not 5-10 years from now... i remember how amazing some video games looked in the original playstation that look like crap now... but when they were first shown they were impressive and applauded.

    When the iphone came out it was amazing and its slowly losing popularity, 5-10 years from now, nobody will care about it but does that mean we cant appreciate it here and now?
    You have missed my point completely.

    The film is not any good. Special effects are not special and are not the basis of a good film. They can be a part of a good film (T2, Star Wars - originals) but they can't be the basis of it (who remembers the Final Fantasy movie???).

    My point is that you are being wowed by frivolity rather than quality. You see it as spectacular but that is only because it is new. This means you are not appreciating the full spectrum presented but rather the simplistic and shallow levels of entertainment. If you want to be wowed why not just go and see real life: it will be so realistic and visceral and the images will just jump right up in front of you. If they need to be blue people then take some paint.

    A great example of my point is the Final Fantasy:Spirits Within film. It was applauded for its realistic animation and amazing effects. The movie sucked donkey ballz though and didn't have the marketing hype of a major studio behind it (bankrupted its studio actually).
    Quote Quote
    The Spirits Within debuted to mixed critical reception, but received praise for the realism of the computer-animated characters. The film only grossed $85 million on a $137 million budget, and is blamed for the demise of its studio, Square Pictures. It has been called a box office bomb.
    If everyone had been told that this was amazing and had the best special effects ever seen and was a spectacle to behold I bet it would have done better. Movie still would have sucked and would rightly have disappeared from social conciousness.

    My point really is that if you get caught up in the shallow and simplistic you cannot ever really enjoy things (movies, art, literature, music, life) to the uttmost. I'm not saying don't watch the film, I'm saying stop telling people this is such a great film because it looks pretty.


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    Mystic River - very good movie. kept me on my toes the whole time. very good perfomancens by Sean Penn and Tim Robbins.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    You have missed my point completely.

    The film is not any good. Special effects are not special and are not the basis of a good film. They can be a part of a good film (T2, Star Wars - originals) but they can't be the basis of it (who remembers the Final Fantasy movie???).

    My point is that you are being wowed by frivolity rather than quality. You see it as spectacular but that is only because it is new. This means you are not appreciating the full spectrum presented but rather the simplistic and shallow levels of entertainment. If you want to be wowed why not just go and see real life: it will be so realistic and visceral and the images will just jump right up in front of you. If they need to be blue people then take some paint.

    A great example of my point is the Final Fantasy:Spirits Within film. It was applauded for its realistic animation and amazing effects. The movie sucked donkey ballz though and didn't have the marketing hype of a major studio behind it (bankrupted its studio actually).

    If everyone had been told that this was amazing and had the best special effects ever seen and was a spectacle to behold I bet it would have done better. Movie still would have sucked and would rightly have disappeared from social conciousness.

    My point really is that if you get caught up in the shallow and simplistic you cannot ever really enjoy things (movies, art, literature, music, life) to the uttmost. I'm not saying don't watch the film, I'm saying stop telling people this is such a great film because it looks pretty.
    I am not being wowed by frivolity. I am being wowed that avatar is the first movie to bring 3d to the mainstream. This is as monumental as the first mainstream talking movie.

    Through sheer force of will James Cameron created a technology that will be used in some amazing ways in the future, especially when attached to a good plot.

    In this movie Cameron used the technology to create some feelings that had never really been done before. Looking over the edge of a cliff and feeling how far down it was, feeling what it was like to be flying.

    The movies that use the technologies based off of what was done for avatar will be standing on the shoulders of giants, and the giants need to be recognized. This movie should not win best picture, as it wasn't. Does Cameron deserve best director for finding a way to get people back in theatres while simultaneously pushing film technology forward again? Possibility.

    Will the plot of this movie and its technology appear dated later on? Certainly. Will that take away from its reception years from now? Certainly. Does that mean at this time this movie is not a critical force in shaping the way movies will be made in the future? No.

    Personally I find the plot of Star Wars to be lackluster. What drove that movie to phenomenal success was the creation of an endearing universe where the audience could escape to. Thats what Cameron did with avatar. Created a universe of fantasy and wonder. Much like what Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings (though he had some of the best source material of all time to work with).

    My appreciation of this film is based on the world created, and the technical prowess it took to make it. The story isn't all that moving to me. I have never said it was a great movie. I said it did some great things.

    Telling me how I should enjoy art or music or life is a bit beyond your range of knowledge. Just because I enjoy and find beauty in the technical things in life doesn't make that sense of awe any less profound then that of a music aficionado. I agree that one must look past the appearance of things to get to their full beauty and must subject them to careful study in order to truly appreciate them in their entirety. I look at what I watch, read and live just as intently as you do, just because we appreciate different things about different subjects doesn't make our opinions of what is beautiful and relevant any less equal.


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  10. #4114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironheart View Post
    Mystic River - very good movie. kept me on my toes the whole time. very good perfomancens by Sean Penn and Tim Robbins.
    I also really enjoyed mystic river.


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  11. #4115
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    Invictus - 9/10 - Very inspirational movie. It's hard to imagine that much of what they created through the movie is actually happening in SA though.


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  12. #4116
    Mecca V.I.P. tim290280's Avatar
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    Dude you've largely agreed with me, just a slighty different take on the merits of what Cameron has done. So I agree with a lot of your points about turning points and the like. I'll make a couple of comments below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryeland View Post
    I am not being wowed by frivolity. I am being wowed that avatar is the first movie to bring 3d to the mainstream. This is as monumental as the first mainstream talking movie.
    And the first talkie was??? I know easy point to make that it is hard to remember the specific turning point films.

    Quote Quote
    Through sheer force of will James Cameron created a technology that will be used in some amazing ways in the future, especially when attached to a good plot.
    Story of Cameron's career. Hearing the other side from the studio when he went massively over budget on Titanic was interesting.

    Quote Quote
    In this movie Cameron used the technology to create some feelings that had never really been done before. Looking over the edge of a cliff and feeling how far down it was, feeling what it was like to be flying.

    The movies that use the technologies based off of what was done for avatar will be standing on the shoulders of giants, and the giants need to be recognized. This movie should not win best picture, as it wasn't. Does Cameron deserve best director for finding a way to get people back in theatres while simultaneously pushing film technology forward again? Possibility.

    Will the plot of this movie and its technology appear dated later on? Certainly. Will that take away from its reception years from now? Certainly. Does that mean at this time this movie is not a critical force in shaping the way movies will be made in the future? No.
    Largely agree. I'm not saying that advancing technology is a bad thing, just not something we should be pretending is anything other than that. The other comments made in this thread would have you believe that this is the best movie ever. My point is, as yours appears to be, that this is a turning point in technology.

    Quote Quote
    Personally I find the plot of Star Wars to be lackluster. What drove that movie to phenomenal success was the creation of an endearing universe where the audience could escape to. Thats what Cameron did with avatar. Created a universe of fantasy and wonder. Much like what Peter Jackson did with Lord of the Rings (though he had some of the best source material of all time to work with).
    I agree that Star Wars was woodenly acted (except Ford who carried the trilogy) and a fairly average plot. But it combined everything together to create a series of films that is still talked about 30 years later and were so good someone thought they had license to try to recapture that magic and failed miserably (even with the showy special effects and stunts).

    Quote Quote
    My appreciation of this film is based on the world created, and the technical prowess it took to make it. The story isn't all that moving to me. I have never said it was a great movie. I said it did some great things.
    Same page. I personally think this may herald enough enthusiasm in technology that we will have people trying to make 3D stand in theatres. This would be where you are literally surrounded by the movie as though really there. Now that would be cool.

    Quote Quote
    Telling me how I should enjoy art or music or life is a bit beyond your range of knowledge. Just because I enjoy and find beauty in the technical things in life doesn't make that sense of awe any less profound then that of a music aficionado. I agree that one must look past the appearance of things to get to their full beauty and must subject them to careful study in order to truly appreciate them in their entirety. I look at what I watch, read and live just as intently as you do, just because we appreciate different things about different subjects doesn't make our opinions of what is beautiful and relevant any less equal.
    True. I did step over the line. But by the same token I hate it when people rave about something that is merely the shallow casing.


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    Mecca V.I.P. tim290280's Avatar
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    Deer Hunter

    My first comment is that this film is long. Really long. Halfway in and I was already thinking about how I could have edited this film down while still capturing the essence.

    Don't get me wrong, great film and DeNiro is fantastic, as is Walken. Although I find it interesting the way it played out, Mike being the strong character was still not really coping, just more able to keep going. Fairly typical of a lot of my grandad's generation.


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  14. #4118
    Mecca Super-***** dilatedmuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    You have missed my point completely.

    The film is not any good. Special effects are not special and are not the basis of a good film. They can be a part of a good film (T2, Star Wars - originals) but they can't be the basis of it (who remembers the Final Fantasy movie???).
    ok...

    The basic nature of a film is to entertain.... how many people have insinuated in this board that it was entertaining and they watched it or wanted to watch it multiple times? If the film entertained people then why does it matter to you that people are applauding it?

    I dont think Final Fantasy is a good example because i dont know anybody who thought the film was entertaining.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    Dude you've largely agreed with me, just a slighty different take on the merits of what Cameron has done. So I agree with a lot of your points about turning points and the like. I'll make a couple of comments below.
    True, as is usually the case between us.

    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    And the first talkie was??? I know easy point to make that it is hard to remember the specific turning point films.
    The Jazz Singer, may not be remembered now, but that doesn't make it any less revolutionary and pivotal. Just in the same way that many people may not remember the significance of the treaty of Versailles on world history doesn't make it any less important.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    Story of Cameron's career. Hearing the other side from the studio when he went massively over budget on Titanic was interesting.
    That is an interesting story. His bets always seem to pay off huge though.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    Largely agree. I'm not saying that advancing technology is a bad thing, just not something we should be pretending is anything other than that. The other comments made in this thread would have you believe that this is the best movie ever. My point is, as yours appears to be, that this is a turning point in technology.
    This is true, but this is a new tool for more adventurous filmmakers, and its creator needs to be recognized.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    I agree that Star Wars was woodenly acted (except Ford who carried the trilogy) and a fairly average plot. But it combined everything together to create a series of films that is still talked about 30 years later and were so good someone thought they had license to try to recapture that magic and failed miserably (even with the showy special effects and stunts).
    Very true, I think at this point a sequel to Avatar is a given. I think the world created has the possibility for some awesome stories to be told. But time will tell. For what its worth, I though Zoe Saldana, who played Netyri did an excellent job.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    Same page. I personally think this may herald enough enthusiasm in technology that we will have people trying to make 3D stand in theatres. This would be where you are literally surrounded by the movie as though really there. Now that would be cool.
    Oh man, I saw it in IMAX the other day. The sound was so good. When explosions when off you could feel them in their correct positions. The 3d was amazing too. Holographic projection is an awesome idea and I can't wait till its a reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by tim290280 View Post
    True. I did step over the line. But by the same token I hate it when people rave about something that is merely the shallow casing.
    I agree with you that something should not be praised merely for its looks. But in the case of this movie there was so much technical innovation and good old creativity behind making those looks I think they deserve some recognition. Like I said, it was a great experience, not a great movie. But creating a great experience I guess is the goal of a movie.


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    Chaos reigns. Line's Avatar
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    Was the iPhone compared to art?


     


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    Quote Originally Posted by Line View Post
    Was the iPhone compared to art?
    Depends on your definition of art. The iPhone could be called art in its carefully balanced compromise between form and function. I view automobile design and engineering as art. The sound of properly tuned high performance engine is more moving to me than a symphony.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryeland View Post
    Depends on your definition of art. The iPhone could be called art in its carefully balanced compromise between form and function. I view automobile design and engineering as art. The sound of properly tuned high performance engine is more moving to me than a symphony.
    A symphony is a greater artform though lol.


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