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Ugh...Burqa ban in France?

Tech

Tech

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Burqa ban passes French lower house overwhelmingly

Paris, France (CNN) -- France's lower house of parliament Tuesday overwhelmingly passed a ban on any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women.


It's nice to see that bigotry is alive and well in France. :doh:

Paris, France (CNN) -- France's lower house of parliament Tuesday overwhelmingly passed a ban on any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women.

The vote was 335 to 1.

The measure must still go to the French Senate before it becomes law. The Senate is expected to vote on it in the week of September 20.

Amnesty International immediately condemned the vote.

"A complete ban on the covering of the face would violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who wear the burqa or the niqab in public as an expression of their identity or beliefs," said John Dalhuisen, Amnesty International's expert on discrimination in Europe.

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey this spring.

Some 82 percent of people polled approved of a ban, while 17 percent disapproved. That was the widest support the Washington-based think tank found in any of the five countries it surveyed.

Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found.

The French Council of Ministers approved the measure in May, saying veils that cover the face "cannot be tolerated in any public place." Their approval sent the bill to parliament.

The parliamentary vote is the latest step in France's efforts to ban the burqa, niqab and other Muslim garments that cover a woman's face.

A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

The bill envisions a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil.

Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa would be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."

The measure would take effect six months after passage, giving authorities time to try to persuade women who veil themselves voluntarily to stop.

The French Council of State has warned that the ban could be incompatible with international human rights laws and the country's own constitution. The council advises on laws, but the government is not required to follow its recommendations.

If the French bill is approved by the upper house and signed into law, it will be the first national ban in Europe on the burqa, a full-body covering that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes.

The hijab, which tightly covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently would not be banned by either law. However, a 2004 law in France bans the wearing or displaying of overt religious symbols in schools -- including the wearing of headscarves by schoolgirls.

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that France has about 3.5 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.

France does not keep its own statistics on religious affiliation of the population, in keeping with its laws requiring the state to be strictly secular.
 
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fdelval

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looks like loreal will have more woman to use their make up products..

the eastern burqa or the western one, the woman is a slave of the beauty / male dominance.
 
dilatedmuscle

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damn, i loved walking around covering my face with a bandana.
 
lifterdead

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Does this mean I can't wear a Burqa to my next Halloween party in France?

Seriously, wtf. Are they going to start arresting people who wear it? This is gonna cause a shitload of problems. France is practically half Muslim.
 
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That is disappointing.
How so? And I'm not trying to start a grand debate here, but I'm curious as to how, as Richard Dawkins put it, the elimination of an "Instrument of oppression of women and claustral repression of their liberty and their beauty; not just a token of egregious male cruelty and tragically cowed female submission" can be an inherently bad thing, even in the name of religious freedom, or the supposed waning thereof.
 
Storm

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Some towns here in Spain are regulating the use of it inside public gov. buildings. You must be indentifiable (sp?) to enter on any of those, a few months ago a woman refused to take a burqa off while in court when asked by the judge. How can you know who's talking from below that thing?

My only concern with that ban is that it may cause those women to not being allowed to go out their homes by their husbands if they cannot cover themselves.
 
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My only concern with that ban is that it may cause those women to not being allowed to go out their homes by their husbands if they cannot cover themselves.
Which is inherently absurd, for more than one application of social sagacity.
 
Storm

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Which is inherently absurd, for more than one social sagacities.
Edit 'cause i'm not quite sure i understood you after your rewording lol
 

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Correct, but it's quite hard to avoid it happening.
Not really, provided that the most adequate of intellectuals realize that organized religion is, eventually, going to be viewed as archaic as cave-dwelling. That said, I understand the cultural relevance of religiosity at large, but fail to grant it the kind of sanctimony that its most devout followers demand. I'm more than willing to claim that, without religion, the world would be better ipso facto. Resistance to this mentality is only going to hinder humanist headway.
 
Storm

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^^ I couldn't agree more. Religions were useful and even neccesary centuries/millenia ago but today they are just ballast.
However, struggle with fanatic individuals is a different story.
 
tim290280

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I'm not a fan of fundamentalist religion. I'm also an Aussie and we are generally wary of anyone that is overtly dogmatic, due to our laid back nature. But I have read a few Islamic forums about the burqa and other head-dresses (as the burqa is full face coverage).
Burqa20niqab20hijab20etc-1.jpg

The first thing I read was the passages that refer to modesty and clothing of females. Basically these clothes are all about honouring your partner and being modest. So I can see why a lot of Muslim women defend their right to wear the various head-dresses.

However, I do agree that in Christian based societies there does have to be some middle ground given by other religious groups within that society. Basically they have come to another society for whatever reason, they do have to acknowledge and have a level of conformity. This is similar to needing basic language skills if you decide to live in a foreign country.
 
Tech

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It's sad that some of you can't understand the problem here.

This is about a group of people being discriminated against for no reason.

These women in the burqa's aren't harming anyone. They want to be left alone.

This is just another pathetic attempt to demonize Muslims.
 
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It's sad that some of you can't understand the problem here.

This is about a group of people being discriminated against for no reason.

These women in the burqa's aren't harming anyone. They want to be left alone.

This is just another pathetic attempt to demonize Muslims.

Coming from you i cannot be sure if you're serious.

Anyway i don't mind if they wear a burqa on the streets, but the incident here in spain inside a courtroom is another story. Plus it can be argued that the burqa is way to demonize women and women's body.
 
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These women in the burqa's aren't harming anyone. They want to be left alone.
Probably because they've been, over the course of many generations, raised or socially conditioned, if you will, to be subservient. I'm not saying the French don't have latently racist motives - that the general population feels there are "too many" Muslims in their country is of little secret - and that this is the best course of action, but I hardly see the burqa, and the beliefs that accord its use, as good things. Interesting that the article also states that, "Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found." I'm guessing that this has next-to-nothing to do with our personal thoughts on freedom and instead is caused by our own religiosity giving way to empathy. Either that, or the countries that are most proximal to areas of higher Muslim concentrations are more prone to want the ban. There's probably some sort of correlation there and I'd be curious to know how other countries of the EU would react to something similar. In any event, and at the very least, the French government did reference, "the dignity of the person and equality between sexes" as their reason for the decision. Whether you believe that or not is fine; I question it myself. But you and I are a ways away from this whole incident (both physically and culturally), so our perspectives are going to be understandably limited. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see this as a clear-cut right/wrong issue and that I found your initial response a bit hyperbolic.
 
lifterdead

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Actually, I'd have to agree with Tech here (if he is serious.)

Yes, Burqas are terrible. One of my female cousins is married to a Muslim man and some of the religious expectations he has of her are atrocious.

But.....

I don't agree with the government of France banning them. If they want to cover up in public, so be it. We shouldn't let the government, or even popular vote decide what type of clothing is acceptable to wear.


Quite frankly I don't think it's any of the French governments business.

Can you imagine if the US government suddenly decided to ban tank tops because too many women have muffin tops? Seems like a great idea at first, but it's such a slippery slope......
 
tim290280

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While I agree that we have a certain level of personal freedoms we also do have to abide by our wider society. I don't see much reason to ban the burqa, but as my picture shows there are several levels of head-dress worn by women so the actual restrictions being asked for are actually well within the limits of their society. In point of fact this "invasion of freedoms" is no such thing, just asking them to tone it down a bit.

This is the same as how we have public indecency laws, you can be naked at home, naked at some beaches and resorts, but we ask that people wear clothes to work and the movies for the sake of not having to see bad naked.
 
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Tech

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Actually, I'd have to agree with Tech here (if he is serious.)
Yes, I am.

It's not about me defending religion, it's about defending someones freedom.

I believe every human should have the right to express themselves in any way they want, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.
 
lifterdead

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What happened to my last posts??????????????????
 
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