Bush condemns 'bullying' Russia

[Ironslave]

It was viewed as a "pass" because our pacific fleet was wiped out while they were in their beds sleeping. Not that it made it right, but this was the 1940's after-all. The first 4-5 decades of the 20th century for the Soviets, Japan, Germany, United States plus others, were spent on creating the most effective and devastating new weapons for war. There were no lines drawn on to what was right and what was wrong.

For the record, i'm not defending the United States actions.

Oh I know, just listing an example. Two wrongs don't make things right.

Germany gave us several warnings and the people were very unwise, but stating the Lusitania was purposely used to bring upon war is a strong statement.

Did they ever, they took out a full page ad in the New York Times, lol.

“Notice! Travelers intending to embark on the Atlantic voyage are reminded that a state of war exists between Germany and her allies and Great Britain and her allies … travelers sailing in the war zone on ships of Great Britain … do so at their own risk.”

Still though, it went right into a war zone, carrying millions of rounds of weapons from America for the British, and Churchill withdrew the British military escort ship, pretty well serving it on a platter to be sunk. The British had cracked the German codes at this point, so they knew there were subs in the area that could sink it, but they still withdrew the Juno and left it there. A lot of powerful people benefited from the war, as they do in all wars.

 

[Bulkboy]

Oh yeah? Well, I'm tired of being lied to by the American government. It makes me sick to my stomach how much we are backing Georgia, practically asking for another cold war. In the meantime, we're at war or very close to it in three different countries; which alone we can't handle. This war between Russia and Georgia was started by Saakashvilli, just take it from a Georgian citizen that was nearly killed.

By the way, your Germany analogy is terrible. George Bush and John McCain were the one's to make the ironic statement, after attacking two other countries already in the 21st century. It would be more like Hitler saying in the middle of WW2 that "Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 20th century," Mr. Hitler said."

For your information Bulkboy, Germany did not start World War 1.

im not talking about a military intervention here. just saying the world need to let russia know that these actions are unacceptable. cmon, yes georgia did attack first, but those rebel republics belonged to them in the first place, and there is also proof that russia had been planning their response for months, hence why it was so effective. they wanted to fuck up georgia. nothing justifies the russian military repsonse of bombing civillians with cluster bombs.

and that one little clip from fox news, with one 12 year old girl does not, in any way whatsoever represent this whole conflict. its more complicated. i can see why she symphatizes with russia if she experiencedw what she said, but if we look at this geopolitically, russias response and warfare against georgia is still unacceptable which was my point.

and ure somewhat right about germany not starting the first world war. its complicated, but they do bear most of the responsiblity for it, backing austria, and attacking france through belgium which they knew would lead to an all out war with the western powers. although i agree the versaille treaty was unfair in many ways, and did infact lay the foundation for the second world war.

 

[Ironslave]

im not talking about a military intervention here. just saying the world need to let russia know that these actions are unacceptable. cmon, yes georgia did attack first, but those rebel republics belonged to them in the first place, and there is also proof that russia had been planning their response for months, hence why it was so effective. they wanted to fuck up georgia. nothing justifies the russian military repsonse of bombing civillians with cluster bombs.

and that one little clip from fox news, with one 12 year old girl does not, in any way whatsoever represent this whole conflict. its more complicated. i can see why she symphatizes with russia if she experiencedw what she said, but if we look at this geopolitically, russias response and warfare against georgia is still unacceptable which was my point.

How about the world first let America know it's actions are unacceptable? No country does as much harm as it does, why do you always defend them?

Why do you always selectively ignore points, such as the American hand in this conflict? Georgia attacks civilian targets, and yet they get a pass too? But the "evil Russians" don't? Why do you ignore the fact that Georgia did this with US/Israel's training, and their weapons?

Sorry, but your comment about discussing this conflict without "dragging America into it" shows your ignorance on this, and there's no way for you to attempt to back peddle. It just shows that you didn't know America was involved, which is flat out wrong. Discussing this and not discussing America is basically exactly the same as discussing the Soviet-Afghan war, and not discussing America.

It's shit like this which makes it difficult for me to sometimes remain civil. How the fuck can you keep painting a picture of the Evil Russians are picking on the poor helpless Georgians? It's the same shit as Iraq, evil terrorists vs. good guy americans who are there to help (even though they've made "oopsies" which have killed probably over a MILLION people)

I strongly strongly suggest you turn off the tv, and read this.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/south-ossetia.htm

 

[Flex]

and ure somewhat right about germany not starting the first world war. its complicated, but they do bear most of the responsiblity for it, backing austria, and attacking france through belgium which they knew would lead to an all out war with the western powers. although i agree the versaille treaty was unfair in many ways, and did infact lay the foundation for the second world war.

I wouldn't say they bear most of the responsibility. It was leading toward a war with the western powers no matter what they did. France was Russia biggest ally, it was only a matter of time until they attacked Germany just like Russia did. Was Germany supposed to wait around and let that happen?

There are three countries that deserve more credit for starting the first world war in my opinion, and that's Serbia for not taking action against the Black Hand when Austria asked them to do so peacefully. Austria deserves much of the credit for being so aggressive, but you can't blame them after their heir and entire family was assassinated. Then ofcourse Russia, which immediately sided with Serbia and were the first country to attack Germany.

 

[Bulkboy]

How about the world first let America know it's actions are unacceptable? No country does as much harm as it does, why do you always defend them?

what does that has to do with anything? so basically what u are saying is that because america has done bad things throughout history we should let russia get away with their actions and focus on america. thats ridicolous, in this particular case, russia is the aggressor, and it must be allowed to direct the criticism their way, without u attacking me for being all pro america.

Why do you always selectively ignore points, such as the American hand in this conflict? Georgia attacks civilian targets, and yet they get a pass too? But the "evil Russians" don't? Why do you ignore the fact that Georgia did this with US/Israel's training, and their weapons?

first of all, rebel groups started shooting at georgian troops, georgia responded to that provocation. also lets not forget that south ossetia and abkhazia originally belongs to Georgia, they have russian minorities that with russian support broke out of georgia. this conflict goes way back, and georgia has more of a reason to want these land areas back then u think. alot indicates that these rebel groups with the support of russia, increased their activity to provoke georgia to attack so russia would have a reason to move in, which explains the incredibly efficient russian response, it was planned. i dont think u understand in what direction russia has moved since putin came to power. the russian bear is infact awakening again. i live in a country that share boarders with russia, and the russians are frequently flying strategic bombers right next to our borders, bombers that can carry nuclear weapons. we see it again and again, when russia gets powerful, democracy gets put in the background for military aggresion and expansion.

Sorry, but your comment about discussing this conflict without "dragging America into it" shows your ignorance on this, and there's no way for you to attempt to back peddle. It just shows that you didn't know America was involved, which is flat out wrong. Discussing this and not discussing America is basically exactly the same as discussing the Soviet-Afghan war, and not discussing America.

please read my response. i dont think there can be any doubt that america is a close ally to georgia, where did i say that was not the case? but that does not make my original point about the russian response being disproportionate and overwhelmingly brutal any less valid. and yes, america was involved in the afghan war, soviet was involved in the vietnam and korean war. its what military powers do, dont think for a second that america is any worse than russia. if u look at the russian warfare and compare it to americas i think u will see who is the most brutal. atleast america doesent intentionally drop cluster bombs on civillians.

It's shit like this which makes it difficult for me to sometimes remain civil. How the fuck can you keep painting a picture of the Evil Russians are picking on the poor helpless Georgians? It's the same shit as Iraq, evil terrorists vs. good guy americans who are there to help (even though they've made "oopsies" which have killed probably over a MILLION people)

I strongly strongly suggest you turn off the tv, and read this.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/south-ossetia.htm

IS, now u are the one putting words in my mouth. i dont think ive painted a picture of evil russians picking on helpless georgians. obviously, a response from moscow was to be expected from the georgian military attack. but this response was infact disproportionate and overwhelmingly brutal against the civillian population. one thing is to use air force to soften enemy ground positions, and in that process kill civillians. its sad, but that happends in modern warfare. but cmon, dropping cluster bombs in the middle of populated towns, right after a consensus against such weapons have been made, that is just a provocation, and unnecessary, my point is that the world need to let russia know this.

 

[Bulkboy]

I wouldn't say they bear most of the responsibility. It was leading toward a war with the western powers no matter what they did. France was Russia biggest ally, it was only a matter of time until they attacked Germany just like Russia did. Was Germany supposed to wait around and let that happen?

There are three countries that deserve more credit for starting the first world war in my opinion, and that's Serbia for not taking action against the Black Hand when Austria asked them to do so peacefully. Austria deserves much of the credit for being so aggressive, but you can't blame them after their heir and entire family was assassinated. Then ofcourse Russia, which immediately sided with Serbia and were the first country to attack Germany.

dont forget that germany gave austria the blank check, that gave austria germanys full support to attack serbia, they actually pushed for it. and germany declared war on russia first, when russia refused to stop mobilizing troops, which they offcouse had to do. i think that germany definetely bears most of the responsiblity, frederich lead a very agressive expansionist policy all throughout. this policy, combined with full support for austria to attack serbia which they knew would lead to a war with russia and the fact that they attacked france through belgium which they knew were neural and was supported by the western powers lead me to say that germany with their imperialistic policy throught the start of the 19th century does infact bear most of the responsiblity for the escalation and the war.

 

[Ironslave]

Do you actually believe any of this crap that you type?

what does that has to do with anything? so basically what u are saying is that because america has done bad things throughout history we should let russia get away with their actions and focus on america. thats ridicolous, in this particular case, russia is the aggressor, and it must be allowed to direct the criticism their way, without u attacking me for being all pro america.


first of all, rebel groups started shooting at georgian troops, georgia responded to that provocation. also lets not forget that south ossetia and abkhazia originally belongs to Georgia, they have russian minorities that with russian support broke out of georgia. this conflict goes way back, and georgia has more of a reason to want these land areas back then u think. alot indicates that these rebel groups with the support of russia, increased their activity to provoke georgia to attack so russia would have a reason to move in, which explains the incredibly efficient russian response, it was planned. i dont think u understand in what direction russia has moved since putin came to power. the russian bear is infact awakening again. i live in a country that share boarders with russia, and the russians are frequently flying strategic bombers right next to our borders, bombers that can carry nuclear weapons. we see it again and again, when russia gets powerful, democracy gets put in the background for military aggresion and expansion.

Russia is NOT the aggressor!! Fuck, Georgia goes in and kills 2,000 people, many of whom are Russian citizens, attacks fucking hospitals, kills 15 diplomatic peacekeepers who'd been in the region for over a decade, and THEN Russia finally responds.... and Russia is the one who must be known that their actions are unacceptable?

South Ossetia does NOT want to be part of Georgia, so the nonsense you spew about Georgia wanting the lands back is just bullshit. They tried to get full independence from Georgia in 1992, and again in 2006, and both times it wasn't recognized.

please read my response. i dont think there can be any doubt that america is a close ally to georgia, where did i say that was not the case? but that does not make my original point about the russian response being disproportionate and overwhelmingly brutal any less valid. and yes, america was involved in the afghan war, soviet was involved in the vietnam and korean war. its what military powers do, dont think for a second that america is any worse than russia. if u look at the russian warfare and compare it to americas i think u will see who is the most brutal. atleast america doesent intentionally drop cluster bombs on civillians.



IS, now u are the one putting words in my mouth. i dont think ive painted a picture of evil russians picking on helpless georgians. obviously, a response from moscow was to be expected from the georgian military attack. but this response was infact disproportionate and overwhelmingly brutal against the civillian population. one thing is to use air force to soften enemy ground positions, and in that process kill civillians. its sad, but that happends in modern warfare. but cmon, dropping cluster bombs in the middle of populated towns, right after a consensus against such weapons have been made, that is just a provocation, and unnecessary, my point is that the world need to let russia know this.

[/quote]

Disproportionate? How many civilians do you think Russia has killed in this conflict? Maybe 100? Disproportionate? Killing 100, as opposed to 2000, is disproportionate? Even you have to admit that this is one of the biggest crock of shit things you've said on the site.

America doesn't "intentionally" drop bombs on civilians? LOL, no, they just use their fucking puppet states like Georgia to do it.

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Watch

 

[Flex]

Thanks for posting the second video IS.

Excellent overview of what's really happening.

 

[Ironslave]

No problemo dude.

Just for the record, I want to make things clear that the problem is the government of America, not the country as a whole. Many of my best friends are American, though too many are apathetic as to what their country is doing on a global scale.

 

[Bulkboy]

Russia is NOT the aggressor!! Fuck, Georgia goes in and kills 2,000 people, many of whom are Russian citizens, attacks fucking hospitals, kills 15 diplomatic peacekeepers who'd been in the region for over a decade, and THEN Russia finally responds.... and Russia is the one who must be known that their actions are unacceptable?

do u even know the background of the conflict? do u know that south ossetia and abkhasia originally belongs to georgia? do u know that armed militiaes backed by the russians have been operating in these territories attacking georgian positions? u once again accuse me of painting a one sided image when in reality u are the one doing this again. do not for a second believe that poor russia was attacked for no reason and then only "defended" themselves.

South Ossetia does NOT want to be part of Georgia, so the nonsense you spew about Georgia wanting the lands back is just bullshit. They tried to get full independence from Georgia in 1992, and again in 2006, and both times it wasn't recognized.

the reason why it wasnt recognized is because its georgian territory by law. any nation would use force to keep its borders together. if ure gonna take russias side here in this case, i suggest u to read about the conflict in checnya, where russia used force to stop them from breaking out there. strange huh? in chechnya they bomb the shit out of rebels trying to break out, while now they are proclaiming themselves as freedom fighters in south ossetia. do not for a second believe that americas dobbel standard is any worse than russias.

Disproportionate? How many civilians do you think Russia has killed in this conflict? Maybe 100? Disproportionate? Killing 100, as opposed to 2000, is disproportionate? Even you have to admit that this is one of the biggest crock of shit things you've said on the site.

America doesn't "intentionally" drop bombs on civilians? LOL, no, they just use their fucking puppet states like Georgia to do it.

where do u even get those numbers from? im not even gonna comment on that, i would think that russia has killed far far more than 100 civillians though.

 

[Mygeeto]

do u even know the background of the conflict? do u know that south ossetia and abkhasia originally belongs to georgia? do u know that armed militiaes backed by the russians have been operating in these territories attacking georgian positions? u once again accuse me of painting a one sided image when in reality u are the one doing this again. do not for a second believe that poor russia was attacked for no reason and then only "defended" themselves.



the reason why it wasnt recognized is because its georgian territory by law. any nation would use force to keep its borders together. if ure gonna take russias side here in this case, i suggest u to read about the conflict in checnya, where russia used force to stop them from breaking out there. strange huh? in chechnya they bomb the shit out of rebels trying to break out, while now they are proclaiming themselves as freedom fighters in south ossetia. do not for a second believe that americas dobbel standard is any worse than russias.







where do u even get those numbers from? im not even gonna comment on that, i would think that russia has killed far far more than 100 civillians though.

how did you come to that? sources or links?

 

[Robcardu]

As fucked up as something may be it is still the best place to be

Someone has never gone out of the country.