doubt - CEE

[Natzo]

I have two doubts about Creatine Ethil Ester.

I Know that it requires a small dosage compared to MH. 2000 mg is a good dose?

In CEE produts I only see recomended use in workout days, pre workout, should't I take on non- training days like MH?

 

[The Creator]

It is no better than monohydrate. If you choose to load, 2g will suffice after that. I would take it every day while you are on. The idea behind the CEE was that it would absorb much better and more efficiently and that it would eliminate bloat and water retention. Both of these ideas have ultimately failed to live up to the hype. Personally, CEE makes me feel like I am going to crap a brick every time I take it. I feel much better with mono. Malate works well for me, but I think mono is still the best bang for the buck.

 

[Natzo]

thanks creator, I thought it was better than mono because is faster and totally absorbed, but it seems not to be true...

I'm confused now..

 

[The Creator]

^^You could probably get away with taking a little less CEE, but since it is twice as expensive anyways, I think you are better off sticking with mono. It just didnt quite live up to all the hype. My understanding is just that it is not absorbed THAT much better than mono. There was a lot of hype when it first came out and I have yet to see anything really convincing that it lived up to the hype.

 

[Natzo]

guess you're right Creator! thanks

I found this... mybe it helps other with the same doubts :

''Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.''

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Analysis

Over the past few years I have payed a lot of attention to supplement trends as my level of interest in competitave natural bodybuilding has grown. Competing naturally requires a lot of research into what supplements are legal and what is not by whatever federation you choose to compete in. One of the best supplements out there is creatine monohydrate and their are numerous studies supporting it's efficacy. However, one recent trend I have witnessed is companies and young aspiring bodybuilders touting the superiority of creatine ethyl ester over creatine monohydrate.

Creatine ethyl ester is merely creatine monohydrate with an added ester attached to make the creatine molecule more lipopholic. In theory, this would make the absorption more efficient and possibly would require less CEE to serve as an ergogenic aid.

Personally, I have used both CEE and monohydrate with great success. However, the recomended doses of CEE (2.5 grams) never seemed to have the same effect as the recommended dose of monohydrate (5.0 grams). To me this seemed a little odd considering the claims of most CEE products. When I started to experiment with higher doses of CEE (5 grams) I noticed similiar effects to that of monohydrate at the equivalent dose. Something wasn't adding up here.

Upon further reading on monohydrate, because no ethyl ester studies exist, I came across one that studied the physiological differences between monohydrate responders and non responders. This intrigued me because it actually shows that monohydrate isn't inefficient given a certain set of physiological values with regards to pre-existing creatine and phosphocreatine levels in muscles, muscle fiber cross-sectional areas (CSA), the prevalanace of type II muscle fibers, and the amount of fat free mass.

Type II muscle fibers are also called fast twitch muscle fibers. Olympic sprinters may have up to 80% fast twitch fibers while a marathon runner may have up to 80% type I fibers (slow twitch). Both fiber types produce the same force but type II can fire more rapidly, hence the name fast twitch. Based on the the study I was referring to it appears those with a high type II fiber % respond well to creatine monohyrate and much more efficiently to those with a type I fiber %.

Also, it appears that those with larger muscle fiber (CSA) and fat free mass percentages are also better monohydrate responders. This means that if you have a high bodyfat percentage you might not respond well to monohydrate or if you have low muscle mass. Also, if you have smaller muscles in general you might not respond well.

For someone like myself, I do have a high percentage of fat free mass and therefore I respond well to creatine monohydrate. Also, I require the same amount of CEE to have the same ergogenic effects as monohydrate. I feel some companies have been pushing CEE a little too hard and have been addressing some of it's shortfalls for those who might not respond well, like me, by telling the consumer to take another dose.

It is my recommendation that any consumer out there interested in creatine supplementation try using the more basic form of creatine first, which is monohydrate. It is the only form of creatine that has been studied extensively and proven. CEE is a good choice for those who don't fit the physiological criteria stated above, however for general purposes, it is not "better" than monohydrate as many companies would lead you to believe.

Syrotuik DG, Bell GJ. Acute creatine monohydrate supplementation: a descriptive physiological profile of responders vs. nonresponders. Journal of Strength Conditioning Research. 2004 Aug;18(3):610-7.

Bizzarini E, De Angelis L. Is the use of oral creatine supplementation safe? J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2004 Dec;44(4):411-6.

Silber ML. Scientific facts behind creatine monohydrate as sport nutrition supplement. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1999 Sep;39(3):179-88.

 

[PrinceVegeta]

Nice article fond Natzo! Stick to Mono like the creator said! more bang for ya buck!

 

[Workingatit46]

It is no better than monohydrate. If you choose to load, 2g will suffice after that. I would take it every day while you are on. The idea behind the CEE was that it would absorb much better and more efficiently and that it would eliminate bloat and water retention. Both of these ideas have ultimately failed to live up to the hype. Personally, CEE makes me feel like I am going to crap a brick every time I take it. I feel much better with mono. Malate works well for me, but I think mono is still the best bang for the buck.

Agreed if you can respond to mono I would go that way.

 

[MrThinker]

Creatine monohydrate is known for it's poor absorption and user having to ingest large dosages to achieve the desired effect. With Creatine Ethyl Ester there isn't not bloating, no loading phrase and the recommended dosage is smaller then creatine monohydrate. BSN Cell Mass is a good exmaple of a Creatine Ethyl Ester product with no loading, bloating, cramping or dehydration.

The recommended dosage is around 3 - 5 grams per day.

 

[Natzo]

Creatine monohydrate is known for it's poor absorption and user having to ingest large dosages to achieve the desired effect. With Creatine Ethyl Ester there isn't not bloating, no loading phrase and the recommended dosage is smaller then creatine monohydrate. BSN Cell Mass is a good exmaple of a Creatine Ethyl Ester product with no loading, bloating, cramping or dehydration.

The recommended dosage is around 3 - 5 grams per day.

did you read the articles?

the problem with CEE is that it turns to creatinine in no time!

so... it's not that great.. MONO is proved to work and in my opinion and if you read the articles it is better than CEE.

 

[PrinceVegeta]

Creatine monohydrate is known for it's poor absorption and user having to ingest large dosages to achieve the desired effect. With Creatine Ethyl Ester there isn't not bloating, no loading phrase and the recommended dosage is smaller then creatine monohydrate. BSN Cell Mass is a good exmaple of a Creatine Ethyl Ester product with no loading, bloating, cramping or dehydration.

The recommended dosage is around 3 - 5 grams per day.[/QUOTE

Bsn cell mass contains many more ingredients to make a assesment on the CEE conetent.

Creatine is safer and cheaper even if u take 15 grams a day!

 

[The_KM]

It's just, yet, another scam manufacturing companies endure on the public to take their money.

 

[tim290280]

^^ Exactly. If you look through the research, most is on monohydrate and it has been shown to be very effective.