Heath vs Cutler (Mr.Olympia 2008 Preview)

[MetalMX]

Man Phil owns Dexter in that pic!!! I think Phil's time will come very soon but i don't think he can beat cutler just yet. IMO phil is a bit narrow in the shoulders.

 

[mvsf1]

It's not fair to compare Phil all time best with Jay's worst in 5 years.

Anyway, Jay is much heavier than Phil, Phil may get sharper than Cutler in some areas, but as some guys said, in bodybuilding SIZE MATTERS.

Of course Phil aesthethics are supreme and so on, but to me it's the same as Flex vs Dorian in 1993, aesthethics vs mass... and you know what option have been and is in front.

 

[d.capodiferro]

My two dimes:

Bodybuilding is an art form, more so than a sport. And as long as the judging is subjective it will remain so. So yes, bodybuilding IS very much a beauty competition, it is an art trying to depict man physically without weekness.
If you define bodybuilding as "The sport in which the man with the largest amount of muscle wins", then it would be fully a sport, governed by a set of rules - more muscle -> better bodybuilder. But when you add a subjective term for the ideal. like "Defininition" and "Symetry" the whole judging part goes out the window.

"none should dare to say that vic or heat could evev match cutler!" - This is like saying:
"None should dare say that a Lilly could even match a Daisy!" or "
None should dare say that Motzart could even match Bethoven!". Why? Because you are proposing a comparison between two entities whose judgement involves "Symetry" and/or "Defininition", which is Subjective.

Bodybuiling is an art, the competition is just the spice.

again, you seem to talk about philosophy or poetry , not bb.
when you say simmetry, it's about MUSCLE simmetry.
cutler is in another league.
phil's never gonna beat jay(i hope) unless he gains an additional amount of size.
why do you tink ronnie won 8 times an should have deserved the 9th?
do you think he didn't deserved it? i don't think so.

 

[Ironslave]

It's not fair to compare Phil all time best with Jay's worst in 5 years.

Anyway, Jay is much heavier than Phil, Phil may get sharper than Cutler in some areas, but as some guys said, in bodybuilding SIZE MATTERS.

Of course Phil aesthethics are supreme and so on, but to me it's the same as Flex vs Dorian in 1993, aesthethics vs mass... and you know what option have been and is in front.

I don't know what happened to the old mvsf1, but I'm agreeing with pretty much everything you're writing lately.

IF Jay comes in shape, he will beat Phil. That is a big IF. His 2006 conditioning was pretty good, I don't know if he'll ever look like he did in 2001.

If Jay is off, Phil beats him because we know Phil is going to be in shape.

 

[d.capodiferro]

if bodybuilding was about who's the biggest guy on stage then marcus ruhl should be mr o not jay.come on lets admit that jays physique last year wasnt good

yes for me markus should have won mr o.
unfortunately for him ronnie had big and better ticeps,back and legs so it means he was pound 4 pound "bigger".
i'd have placed a conditioned ruhl after ronnie and jay.
that would be the ideal judging.

 

[Big_Guns_Lance]

jay would win. you cant compare the mr olympia with phil heath yet.

 

[robvandam420]

Cutler blows Phil Heath off the stage right now due to his amount of mass. If Cutler nails his conditioning, nobody can touch him.

 

[Bulkboy]

Cutler blows Phil Heath off the stage right now due to his amount of mass. If Cutler nails his conditioning, nobody can touch him.

exactly, its easy to say right now that omg phil looks so much better, but that was the ironman lighting, and in these pics cutler is off. wait and see until u c phil standing next to a mass monster like cutler. i mean, theyre the same height, if cutler isnt shorter, and jay outweighs him by like 50 pounds. this is bbing, and sure symmetry and aesthetics should count for something, but so should the extra years of hard work jay has put in to add all that muscle.

 

[Daniel Andersson]

exactly, its easy to say right now that omg phil looks so much better, but that was the ironman lighting, and in these pics cutler is off. wait and see until u c phil standing next to a mass monster like cutler. i mean, theyre the same height, if cutler isnt shorter, and jay outweighs him by like 50 pounds. this is bbing, and sure symmetry and aesthetics should count for something, but so should the extra years of hard work jay has put in to add all that muscle.

I agree. But I dont count out that Phil one day will be a mass monster.
He could come in to the Mr.O at close to 250lbs this year with a little luck.
He's far from blocky..but having the pics from Arnold last year next to the pics from this years Ironman....then he is a mass monster already IMO

 

[OH_Broker]

I think Phil looked great in those pics, but like others have said, mass wins out at the Olympia. Jay's back would dwarf Phil's back (right now at least) no matter how much symmetry & aesthetics Phil has. Bottom line is Cutler is just bigger. Coupled with correct conditiong (in which Jay admitted he was way off last year), Cutler wins out every time.

 

[Bulkboy]

I agree. But I dont count out that Phil one day will be a mass monster.
He could come in to the Mr.O at close to 250lbs this year with a little luck.
He's far from blocky..but having the pics from Arnold last year next to the pics from this years Ironman....then he is a mass monster already IMO

u think he could add another 20 pounds of pure muscle from now until the O, when hes gonna compete at the arnold in march, sorry dude, but i dont think even phil will be able to do that. but yeah i agree, he could surely become a mass monster, and imo he should play the mass game, because with his frame he could get away with it. hes kinda like ronnie with better triceps and calves and better midsection. but offc a weaker back.

 

[Daniel Andersson]

u think he could add another 20 pounds of pure muscle from now until the O, when hes gonna compete at the arnold in march, sorry dude, but i dont think even phil will be able to do that. but yeah i agree, he could surely become a mass monster, and imo he should play the mass game, because with his frame he could get away with it. hes kinda like ronnie with better triceps and calves and better midsection. but offc a weaker back.

No no...not 20lbs...sry..I thought he was 240lbs at the Ironman..that was at the weigh-in, he was around 230-235lbs I think. What I ment was that he can put on a couple of more pounds if he is lucky..and it hasn't been hard for him to do so this far.

Yeah the only thing not working 100% for him is his obliques...they thend to stick out a little. But its not a problem right now. I can see Phil carry 250-260 without sacrificing his waist

 

[Lionheart]

^I dont see Phils midsection as a problem at all.I cant believe you guys even talk about it..

 

[jdowden87]

he's good, but i don't think he can beat jay this year. if victor comes back like he was last year then there's no way he will beat him either. you can't rule out wolf either, he would tower over heath. just look at how dex looks next to those guys on the olympia stage

 

[Daniel Andersson]

^I dont see Phils midsection as a problem at all.I cant believe you guys even talk about it..

Its not Lionheart. I just see tendencys

 

[Daniel Andersson]

btw....
Look at my Avatar...thats Phil in mass monster mode
<----------------------

 

[Deathmaggot]

btw....
Look at my Avatar...thats Phil in mass monster mode
<----------------------

the only negative thing i see on phil is the narrow clavicular width he has, im not sure how that will affect him adding mass to his chest and back, and if he could be dwarfed by the big guys like wolf or vic

 

[Daniel Andersson]

the only negative thing i see on phil is the narrow clavicular width he has, im not sure how that will affect him adding mass to his chest and back, and if he could be dwarfed by the big guys like wolf or vic

He will always be dwarfed by Dennis Wolf..would is 5'11 Heath 5'9
Vic is 5'9 to I think

 

[Line]

yes you're right. this is still bb and i hope muscle counts at least a bit.
this site is starting to confuse bb with beauty competition.

You've only been here for two months so don't make generalizations about the site as there haven't even been any competitions to analyze since you've been a member. I'm not defending the site just for the sake of my status because there's a lot of fairly thoughtless things being said but yours isn't a very competent statement either.

none should dare to say that vic or heat could evev match cutler! dennis wolf is already another chapter. he's got what it takes to be champ despite some weaknesses

This is absurd. I can tell you why you're wrong but won't bother because I could probably write 8 paragraphs from these two sentences alone (and will if you'd like).

And Dexters weight is around 225-230lbs

Less.

LOOK people have to realize that the PRO JUDGING is very political. When the Olympia rolls around Jay will be favored because he won TWO years in a row, granted he was off during prejudging, but the Ironman has the best lighting at any of the other shows, plus if Vic competes, he may get the nod over both Jay and Phil!!!:angrydude:

Problem #1: You, as well as others, are over-exaggerating just how much of an effect the lights at the IM have. It's one thing to see it from the judges' perspective but when it comes to digital photography these days, we're likely getting filtered images that allow us to see the detail that truly is there, be it only for a moment. You can't honestly tell me that if Jay, in 2007 Mr. Olympia form, competed at the IM his hamstrings and glutes would match that of Heath's.

Problem #2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Victor placing ahead of either Jay or Phil, provided he's better than them on that given day. At the 2007 AC, Vic was better than Heath and won. At the 2007 Mr. O, Vic was better and should have won. I'm as curious as everyone else to see how this three ring circus (four or five if you count Wolf and Dex) plays out at this year's O but I feel that Victor versus Phil is the most intriguing match-up as he's clearly already bested Cutler.

Problem #3: Calm down.

Resent pics Daniel?..so you couldnt use Mr.O final pics of Cutler?

Yes, there he looked better than he did during prejudging but he still looked like hell.

Cutler looks worse than hes ever and i mean EVEEEER been in those pics.

Hyperbole = best. thing. ever.

2004 Olympia (way too puffy), 2004 AC (a travesty).

It's not fair to compare Phil all time best with Jay's worst in 5 years.

See above.

Anyway, Jay is much heavier than Phil, Phil may get sharper than Cutler in some areas, but as some guys said, in bodybuilding SIZE MATTERS.

I agree with this for the most part but I wish you wouldn't still subtextually be making an effort to boost Jay a bit in your post. There are no areas in which Jay looks sharper than Phil, save maybe quad separation, but in this instance it's a matter of genetic shape and there are much better indicators we can look at. That being said, there's nothing wrong, of course, with genetics playing a substantial role in bodybuilding as I'm always the first one to defend them, especially in the case of muscular shape and the emphasis that should be put on it but there seems to be a clear dichotomy of the Cutler defense mechanisms: using size to defend his upper body and separation to defend the lower.

Of course Phil aesthethics are supreme and so on, but to me it's the same as Flex vs Dorian in 1993, aesthethics vs mass... and you know what option have been and is in front.

I agree with this.

Cutler blows Phil Heath off the stage right now due to his amount of mass. If Cutler nails his conditioning, nobody can touch him.

See avatar.

Ridiculous.

exactly, its easy to say right now that omg phil looks so much better, but that was the ironman lighting, and in these pics cutler is off.

They're also the same pictures that some have used to endlessly defend Cutler's supremacy. Also I commented on the lighting in my response to pussybutt.

wait and see until u c phil standing next to a mass monster like cutler. i mean, theyre the same height, if cutler isnt shorter, and jay outweighs him by like 50 pounds.

You know it's not all good weight and Heath more than held his own against Gustavo who the judges apparently don't have much of a problem with in terms of the mass department. Back at the 2004 Olympia and throughout the 2005 season Baddel was considered a freak and on his way to becoming, if not already, a mass monster. Everyone (judges included) seems to forget that you don't have to weigh 275+ pounds to be Mr. Olympia. I don't understand why people blindly defend mass monsters winning shows when it hurts the sport in the long run, and not just in terms of exposure, which just won't happen either way.

this is bbing, and sure symmetry and aesthetics should count for something, but so should the extra years of hard work jay has put in to add all that muscle.

This deservative sentiment is pretty worthless and shouldn't hold any weight in sport.

^I dont see Phils midsection as a problem at all.I cant believe you guys even talk about it..

I agree with this.

 

[Daniel Andersson]

You've only been here for two months so don't make generalizations about the site as there haven't even been any competitions to analyze since you've been a member. I'm not defending the site just for the sake of my status because there's a lot of fairly thoughtless things being said but yours isn't a very competent statement either.

This is absurd. I can tell you why you're wrong but won't bother because I could probably write 8 paragraphs from these two sentences alone (and will if you'd like).

Less.

Problem #1: You, as well as others, are over-exaggerating just how much of an effect the lights at the IM have. It's one thing to see it from the judges' perspective but when it comes to digital photography these days, we're likely getting filtered images that allow us to see the detail that truly is there, be it only for a moment. You can't honestly tell me that if Jay, in 2007 Mr. Olympia form, competed at the IM his hamstrings and glutes would match that of Heath's.

Problem #2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with Victor placing ahead of either Jay or Phil, provided he's better than them on that given day. At the 2007 AC, Vic was better than Heath and won. At the 2007 Mr. O, Vic was better and should have won. I'm as curious as everyone else to see how this three ring circus (four or five if you count Wolf and Dex) plays out at this year's O but I feel that Victor versus Phil is the most intriguing match-up as he's clearly already bested Cutler.

Problem #3: Calm down.

Yes, there he looked better than he did during prejudging but he still looked like hell.

Hyperbole = best. thing. ever.

2004 Olympia (way too puffy), 2004 AC (a travesty).

See above.

I agree with this for the most part but I wish you wouldn't still subtextually be making an effort to boost Jay a bit in your post. There are no areas in which Jay looks sharper than Phil, save maybe quad separation, but in this instance it's a matter of genetic shape and there are much better indicators we can look at. That being said, there's nothing wrong, of course, with genetics playing a substantial role in bodybuilding as I'm always the first one to defend them, especially in the case of muscular shape and the emphasis that should be put on it but there seems to be a clear dichotomy of the Cutler defense mechanisms: using size to defend his upper body and separation to defend the lower.

I agree with this.

See avatar.

Ridiculous.

They're also the same pictures that some have used to endlessly defend Cutler's supremacy. Also I commented on the lighting in my response to pussybutt.

You know it's not all good weight and Heath more than held his own against Gustavo who the judges apparently don't have much of a problem with in terms of the mass department. Back at the 2004 Olympia and throughout the 2005 season Baddel was considered a freak and on his way to becoming, if not already, a mass monster. Everyone (judges included) seems to forget that you don't have to weigh 275+ pounds to be Mr. Olympia. I don't understand why people blindly defend mass monsters winning shows when it hurts the sport in the long run, and not just in terms of exposure, which just won't happen either way.

This deservative sentiment is pretty worthless and shouldn't hold any weight in sport.

I agree with this.

You dont miss anything dont you?
Those weight figures was from Dexter himself. I dont recall the exact number but it was between 225-230lbs according to himself...He could have lied though..that I dont know