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Imagine...

Ironslave

Ironslave

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Found this article... thought it was excellent...

Imagine



Imagine for a moment that somewhere in the middle of Texas there was a large foreign military base, say Chinese or Russian. Imagine that thousands of armed foreign troops were constantly patrolling American streets in military vehicles. Imagine they were here under the auspices of “keeping us safe” or “promoting democracy” or “protecting their strategic interests.”

Imagine that they operated outside of US law, and that the Constitution did not apply to them. Imagine that every now and then they made mistakes or acted on bad information and accidentally killed or terrorized innocent Americans, including women and children, most of the time with little to no repercussions or consequences. Imagine that they set up check points on our soil and routinely searched and ransacked entire neighborhoods of homes. Imagine if Americans were fearful of these foreign troops, and overwhelmingly thought America would be better off without their presence.

Imagine if some Americans were so angry about them being in Texas that they actually joined together to fight them off, in defense of our soil and sovereignty, because leadership in government refused or were unable to do so. Imagine that those Americans were labeled terrorists or insurgents for their defensive actions, and routinely killed, or captured and tortured by the foreign troops on our land. Imagine that the occupiers’ attitude was that if they just killed enough Americans, the resistance would stop, but instead, for every American killed, ten more would take up arms against them, resulting in perpetual bloodshed. Imagine if most of the citizens of the foreign land also wanted these troops to return home. Imagine if they elected a leader who promised to bring them home and put an end to this horror.

Imagine if that leader changed his mind once he took office.

The reality is that our military presence on foreign soil is as offensive to the people that live there as armed Chinese troops would be if they were stationed in Texas. We would not stand for it here, but we have had a globe straddling empire and a very intrusive foreign policy for decades that incites a lot of hatred and resentment towards us.

According to our own CIA, our meddling in the Middle East was the prime motivation for the horrific attacks on 9/11. But instead of re-evaluating our foreign policy, we have simply escalated it. We had a right to go after those responsible for 9/11, to be sure, but why do so many Americans feel as if we have a right to a military presence in some 160 countries when we wouldn’t stand for even one foreign base on our soil, for any reason? These are not embassies, mind you, these are military installations. The new administration is not materially changing anything about this. Shuffling troops around and playing with semantics does not accomplish the goals of the American people, who simply want our men and women to come home. 50,000 troops left behind in Iraq is not conducive to peace any more than 50,000 Russian soldiers would be in the United States.

Shutting down military bases and ceasing to deal with other nations with threats and violence is not isolationism. It is the opposite. Opening ourselves up to friendship, honest trade and diplomacy is the foreign policy of peace and prosperity. It is the only foreign policy that will not bankrupt us in short order, as our current actions most definitely will. I share the disappointment of the American people in the foreign policy rhetoric coming from the administration. The sad thing is, our foreign policy WILL change eventually, as Rome’s did, when all budgetary and monetary tricks to fund it are exhausted.
 
R

Rageking

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good article, thanks man.

really hits the mark for people in a different perspective.
 
tim290280

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It is a tight-rope we walk in trying to help other nations.

Ultimately though there isn't one democratic nation that was formed without having to go to war (although technically some commonwealth countries like Australia never technically did go to war they did have to fight politically to become independant). If it isn't driven by the people they won't have ownership of the resulting nation and government.
 
Braaq

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Kinda dumb IMO.
We aren't in the situation that Iraq was in before or now. So a military occupation would make no sense, or is very unrealistic for the reasons stated.
We are not going to see their perspective unless we are really living the life they are, and we aren't.

Either this is Ron Paul, using a very outlandish comparison, or some dude straight up took everything Ron Paul said and regurgitated it in this article claiming it to be his.
 
Duality

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sounds like Ron Paul himself wrote that. this article would be helpful to read for those who have a hard time understanding why people hate us "because we're free", lol.
 
Samoan-Z

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Great read IR, awesome article it really puts the current situation into perspective.
 
SiCK

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Kinda dumb IMO.
We aren't in the situation that Iraq was in before or now. So a military occupation would make no sense, or is very unrealistic for the reasons stated.
We are not going to see their perspective unless we are really living the life they are, and we aren't.

Either this is Ron Paul, using a very outlandish comparison, or some dude straight up took everything Ron Paul said and regurgitated it in this article claiming it to be his.

Other then Iraq, do you agree with Ron Paul on U.S. military occupation in foreign nations?

BTW, Im pretty sure it's Ron Paul who wrote that. It came from his page on the house's website. Plus he has a weekly radio webcast on there. http://www.house.gov/paul/
 
Tech

Tech

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Kinda dumb IMO.
We aren't in the situation that Iraq was in before or now. So a military occupation would make no sense, or is very unrealistic for the reasons stated.
We are not going to see their perspective unless we are really living the life they are, and we aren't.

Either this is Ron Paul, using a very outlandish comparison, or some dude straight up took everything Ron Paul said and regurgitated it in this article claiming it to be his.
2hs3peu-1.gif
 
Zigurd

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This is quite logical. Any person with a quarter of a brain could have placed themselves in the "other persons" position to understand what they are living through.

It's all a big shame... that things are like this. I wish I were Dr Manhattan to change shit around me as I see fit. Besides, I'd have a blue cock.
 
Natzo

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I think it is out of context.

Imagine:

if USA was ruled by Saddam
if Usa streets were made in dirt, and the white house was coveredin gold.
if Usa people lived in the XIV century economicly

etc.
 
R

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I wish I were Dr Manhattan to change shit around me as I see fit. Besides, I'd have a blue cock.

A blue cock you could control the size of!

But you are missing the point of Dr. Manhattan, he, with his God-like power is unable to save the world, in fact his presence exacerbates the problem.

Many lessons can be learned from the Watchmen. The one most applicable to the argument at hand is whether or not an omnipotent force save a people who reject that forces ability to save them. Historically we hear a resounding and booming NO!

One cannot set up a democracy where a sense of national unity does not exist. A democracy is not a government or a constitution, it is something the people call for. It is an ideal of equality and working together to make a country. You can give a territory a constitution, a bill of rights and a government of representatives chosen by the people, but you can't make the people democratic. History clearly shows that with no call for national unity by the people a democracy is bound to fail. Look at the USSR falling apart after the cold war.

Iraq still has broad cultural divisions within its borders that do not work well together. No matter how much "democracy" the US imparts or forces on these people it will not succeed until, as a nation, Iraqis decide to come together and work as a people.

In fact the manner in which the US has applied "democracy" to the country may have created prejudices against the benefits of democracy in the Iraqi people, which is obviously counter productive. We will have to wait and see the will of the people of Iraq. What works in the US may not work for them.

All that said. Saddam was a terrible human being who committed some serious atrocities. Protecting the people he was harming was always a good thing to do. The way the US went about it was wrong, but there is no denying the horrors of Saddam's rule.

Finally to sum up, this is not a clear cut issue. Was the US valiant in its decision to "protect and liberate" a people? Or was it arrogant and destructive as it destroyed a country in the name of oil and higher profits? There are arguments for both sides of the argument, history will give us an answer, the damage has been done. In the mean time we can all hope for the Iraqi people to come together and form a stable, equitable and prosperous nation directed by their will and not that of someone else.
 
Braaq

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I think it is out of context.

Imagine:

if USA was ruled by Saddam
if Usa streets were made in dirt, and the white house was coveredin gold.
if Usa people lived in the XIV century economicly

etc.

That was more my point, thank you :tiphat:
 
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