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Some questions that need answers.

Fatality

Fatality

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Sorry to waste a whole new thread on such newbie questions, but I've had these annoying questions in the back of mind for days now. First off, is it really needed to take in protein before you lift? I've read some articles and a majority of them say you do, but others say you don't, so I need some answers there. Also, when doing a cable row, are you supposed "to go with the weight" and let your upper body get pulled as you let the weight back to the starting position? If you don't know what I mean, here's a video link,

I was taught to never lean forward and to just keep a stationary position with the back. In addition, what would be a good replacement for dips that would workout the similar muscles? I'm doing dips in my routine A but I want to find a similar exercise that can be an alternate that would get me the same results? Also, since I'm kind of still new to Bent Over Rows, I'm thinking of just training myself on the side in learning how to doing it, but not including it in my routine just yet. But as a result, I must find exercises that work the same area, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of chins, t-bar rows and cable rows. I have chins in the first routine called A, but the routine called B I have bent over rows, so what could I put in for the bent over rows as a replacement? Also, what kind of foods do you guys buy that are cheap and have a lot of protein in them. I currently buy whey protein which seems cheap per serving and I've also found this tub of turkey that they sell that has 45 g of protein and it's only 3.99, I'm just curious what else you guys buy that I can just run down to the store and is very cheap. Also, also, also, before my lifts I normally consume complex carbs to give me the energy, of course. But I'm also curious to other things that can give you the energy before a lift. I just started to eat some honey before a lift because I've heard it's good before a lift and it gives you the energy you need, even though it's not a complex carb. Thanks guys, if you need both routine A and B, then just ask!
 
tim290280

tim290280

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Cable rows you are meant to maintain a neutral spine throughout the movement, so no bending!
Dips don't have a replacement as such. Close grip bench would be the closest I can think of.
Bent over rows are an exercise I consider to be borderline worthless. There are much better rowing exercises (anything prone is better). DB rows with a bench support are a far better option.
Cheap protein usually means bulk food. If it is meant to be cheap turkey or whey or whatever then you are usually compromising the production of the product (ethics, quality, etc).
Eating before a workout is meant to be about having fuel in the system so that you don't deplete your body reserves. Supplement companies have some (not well supported) claims that having the aminos circulating gets them into the body and getting you out of catabolism quicker. Either way it depends on your goal.
 
Zigurd

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Actually, I need the same answers. Exactly the same answers. Woah...
 
Fatality

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Thanks Tim, and Neo, there are your answers lol!!
 
Tonyk212000

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I dont really bend on cable rows but I flare the lats out on the negative. This helps me use them to pull the weight with the lats on the way back. It appears im bening but im just flaring them out to really focus on the back.
 
Bulkboy

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Bent over rows are an exercise I consider to be borderline worthless.

wtf:angrydude:

imo bent over rows are the best back building exercise one can do. i attribute 70% of my back development to that exercise. and if u look at all the great backs they have been built to some extent with this exercise. ronnie, jay, victor, dorian they all did heavy ass bent over rows. imo it should be a staple in everyones back routine:tiphat:
 
Fatality

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Yeah Bulkboy, Tim, please elaborate as to why those are boaderline worthless. I'm still learning and I need to know. Are there any links that prove it, or is it a matter of self-opinion.
 
tim290280

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:methman:
I knew that statement would piss someone off.

Put simply a good bent over row should be in the order of 1.5xBW (or similar to your bench, which ever is bigger). The BOR is performed with either a pronated grip or suppinated grip. The worst of the two is the prontated grip, but the suppinated is also an offender. The correct body position for the BOR is that the upper body be parrallel to the ground, although most are somewhere between a slight bend (ala Yates rows) and 60-70 degrees. The actual bar path is therefore placed at a gap between the legs and lower chest. This places huge loads on the spine, spinal errectors, and hips. Given that most will lack the hip mobility to begin with the load will be placed on the spine when it is in flexion (i.e. bent) which is a big no-no. Even if the spine is held neutrally the shear forces at the spine are huge.

A recent study into the spinal forces exerted during a RDL/SLDL shows that the best bar path for the lowest forces at the lubar spine are to be found from keeping the bar close to the body at all times (sound familiar?). Even small excursions away from the midline of the body increased forces dramatically and they didn't go anywhere near as far away from the body as the normal bent over row bar path would be.

This means that you are putting excessive forces on the spine in a possibly compromised position in order to train your (primarily) lats and traps when there are dozens of other exercises that can do this. Therefore bent over rows are borderline worthless due to the injury risk and development benefit tradeoff. There are better rowing exercises out there that offer support.
 
A

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Which back exercises do you consider worth doing Tim...?
 
tim290280

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^^ The ones that make you work hard :dunnodude:
I could list all the prone rows, DB rows, cable rows, pullup variations etc but from my explanation it should be pretty clear what I'm getting at.
 
Tonyk212000

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T bar rows are the best back exercise IMO.
 
The Creator

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As far as the bent over rows go, I think there is a safe way to do them in which they are a very effective movement. As Tim said, many individuals perform this exercise far from ideal. You have to take into account the line of travel that the bar makes in regards to body position. If one can perform the movement at close to parallel in regards to the ground, maintain a neutral spine, allow the line of travel of the bar to be very close to the body, and keep elbows inside, it can be a very productive exercise. When done in this correct manner, the exercise allows for greater muscle recruitment and thus, a more effective exercise than other isolated movements. The standing movements also allows for the body to produce power through its natural kinetic chain. I see too many people do this movement in a fashion that I can assure is risky. I also see many people do this movement where they are in fact working only traps and/or posterior deltoid. If the movement can be done correctly, it is very good however, if it can not be done right it shouldnt be done at all.
 
wrestling lyon

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if i was to substitute a different exercise for bent over rows I would have to go with old school t-bar rows-putting one end of an olympic bar in the corner and loading plates on the other lift and doing it that way-they kill my back and you can go heavy on these
 
tim290280

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if i was to substitute a different exercise for bent over rows I would have to go with old school t-bar rows-putting one end of an olympic bar in the corner and loading plates on the other lift and doing it that way-they kill my back and you can go heavy on these
:disgust:
So you are recommending essentially the same exercise even after the warnings and explanations of how bad these are for your lower back?:jerkoff1:
 
Fatality

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:carduindisguise
 
wrestling lyon

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personally learning the correct form for t-bar rows is much easier than it is for bent over rows
it is not impossible to do either of these exercises without hurting your lower back
 
tim290280

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^^ If you honestly believe that (even after reading my post) then I have a bridge to sell you.:linedrunk:
 
Ironslave

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Without turning this into a biomechanical debate, Tim is correct in that the further away the bar is from the body, the higher torque on the spine. here is a picture I just did up quickly to to illustrate this.

14y5vf7-1.jpg




But anyways, a T-bar row would have to be easier on the spine, compared to a bent over row, since the bar is closer to the body. Having said all this, i think there's an argument to be made that any ergonomist/biomechanist would agree that doing exercises such as deadlifting 500 lbs for example, are not good for your back. Sure, you can use proper form on them, but either way, it's going to create a lot of force on the spine, that's just the nature of the lift.

But it's so easy to get carried away with this argument for weight lifters. For one, the body does adapt to accommodate to the stressor, but two, we know that these exercises create force, but oh well, we want to be able to deadlift 500 lbs because it's a great way to build muscle and because it's cool to do.

My advice, just do exercises correctly with good form, try and keep a neutral spin.



Edit: I picked those values for the calculations for simplicity sake. Thus, those who seem to search the forum high and low looking for things to nitpick *cough Duality cough* please don't point out that holding a bar 2 meters away from the body in your arms is not possible. Doubling the torque still applies if we hold the bar 0.1 meters away, and 0.2 meters away.

Thanksssss :tiphat:
 
mgballa4life

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those who seem to search the forum high and low looking for things to nitpick *cough Duality cough* please don't point out that holding a bar 2 meters away from the body in your arms is not possible.

:bowroflarms:
 

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