The Training Support Column MkII

[tim290280]

Now onto the VL and VM recruitment from narrow and wide stance squats myth. I could post the couple of studies on this, but instead I found a pretty picture from the Total Bodybuilding book that was a pictorial report of their MRI study of muscle activity during exercise. This is probably the most reliable method of seeing what is happening in the muscle (medical imaging people correct me if I'm wrong).

Narrow stance:

Wide/Normal stance:

 

[Hypocrisy86]

Now onto the VL and VM recruitment from narrow and wide stance squats myth. I could post the couple of studies on this, but instead I found a pretty picture from the Total Bodybuilding book that was a pictorial report of their MRI study of muscle activity during exercise. This is probably the most reliable method of seeing what is happening in the muscle (medical imaging people correct me if I'm wrong).

Narrow stance:

Wide/Normal stance:

So there is somewhat of a difference.
my session today (night) with squats
i did 2 sets wide just to check it out. the set was a little bit easier even when i put more weight on. narrow stance for me, upper middle quads get worked like no other.

 

[tim290280]

So there is somewhat of a difference.
my session today (night) with squats
i did 2 sets wide just to check it out. the set was a little bit easier even when i put more weight on. narrow stance for me, upper middle quads get worked like no other.

I'm sorry but are you blind hypo from all that fapping?

The MRI pics are exactly the same for narrow and wide stance squats!
They comment in the text that the differences are seen in the hips.

 

[tim290280]

I guess I have to be boring and post the study that states things rather than use pretty pictures.

Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat.
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 31(3):428-436, March 1999.
McCAW, STEVEN T.; MELROSE, DONALD R.

Abstract:
Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 3, pp. 428-436, 1999.

Purpose: Altering foot stance is often prescribed as a method of isolating muscles during the parallel squat. The purpose of this study was to compare activity in six muscles crossing the hip and/or knee joints when the parallel squat is performed with different stances and bar loads.

Methods: Nine male lifters served as subjects. Within 7 d of determining 1RM on the squat with shoulder width stance, surface EMG data were collected (800 Hz) from the rectus femoris, vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, adductor longus, gluteus maximus, and biceps femoris while subjects completed five nonconsecutive reps of the squat using shoulder width, narrow (75% shoulder width), and wide (140% shoulder width) stances with low and high loads (60% and 75% 1RM, respectively). Rep time was controlled. A goniometer on the right knee was used to identify descent and ascent phases. Integrated EMG values were calculated for each muscle during phases of each rep, and the 5-rep means for each subject were used in a repeated measures ANOVA (phase x load x stance, [alpha] = 0.05).

Results: For rectus femoris, vastus medialis, and vastus lateralis, only the load effect was significant. Adductor longus exhibited a stance by phase interaction and a load effect. Gluteus maximus exhibited a load by stance interaction and a phase effect. Biceps femoris activity was highest during the ascent phase.

Conclusion: The results suggest that stance width does not cause isolation within the quadriceps but does influence muscle activity on the medial thigh and buttocks.

 

[tim290280]

Continuing on with this theme of leg exercises to target muscles; this one caught my eye. A lot of effort has been put into trying to prove that there is actually a VMO and that it isn't just the VM. This pretty much states that there is and that it has seperate innervation. This means that it could influence patella tracking. I knew that the vasti muscles had seperate innervation, but this means that the VMO could actually be deficient relative to the VM. This study only found it to be operating in balancing coordinating movements, so do your one legged work to develop the VM and VMO!!

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Jul;39(7):1153-9.
New insights into the function of the vastus medialis with clinical implications.
Toumi H, Poumarat G, Benjamin M, Best TM, F'Guyer S, Fairclough J.
Cardiff School of Biosciences, University of Cardiff, Museum Avenue, Cardiff, United Kingdom. toumih@cardiff.ac.uk

PURPOSE: To investigate the gross anatomy of the distal portion of the quadriceps, and to compare the relative contributions of the vastus medialis oblique (VMO) and vastus lateralis (VL) during dynamic weight-bearing conditions. METHODS: Dissection was carried out on 10 cadavers by a longitudinal incision from the anterior superior iliac spine to the patella and completed with upper and lower transverse cuts to reinvestigate the gross anatomy and innervation patterns of the quadriceps femoris. A biomechanical test of knee kinematics was conducted on 10 healthy male volunteers. Maximal isometric force, squat jump, and drop movement jump exercises were performed on a force plate and filmed using a Saga-3 3D system, and surface EMG activity was recorded for the VMO and the VL. RESULTS: The oblique fibers of the vastus medialis (VM) are not only attached to the medial border of the patella, but they also have a small region of direct continuity with the patellar tendon. Furthermore, VMO fibers in the middle and proximal thirds of the thigh attached to vastus intermedius, whereas distally, the fibers were independent. Both parts of the VM (proximal and distal) had independent motor points. During jumping exercises, the VMO and VL were activated in a coordinated manner in a squat jump using both legs. However, in a single-leg squat jump (which challenged the stability of the knee joint more acutely), VMO activation was higher during landing. CONCLUSION: VMO activity was pronounced during the weight-bearing conditions, with increased medial and lateral knee movements. This suggests that the VM should not be considered simply as a knee extensor or as a muscle whose main role is to maintain normal patellar tracking.

 

[tim290280]

Interesting study trying to evaluate the GxE interaction for strength training. Genetics and environment is the interaction that determines what we become, with most genetiscists calling it a 50/50 relationship, although obviously this depends on the circumstances that switch genes on and off, etc. Basically this concludes that strength training wins regardless, duh!, but there are some genes switched on from training.

Strength training: importance of genetic factors.

Epidemiology

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 30(5):724-731, May 1998.
THOMIS, MARTINE A. I.; BEUNEN, GASTON P.; MAES, HERMINE H.; BLIMKIE, CAMERON J.; VAN LEEMPUTTE, MARC; CLAESSENS, ALBRECHT L.; MARCHAL, GUY; WILLEMS, EUSTACHIUS; VLIETINCK, ROBERT F.
Abstract:
Purpose: This study focuses on the quantification of genetic and environmental factors in arm strength after high-resistance strength training.

Methods: Male monozygotic (MZ, N = 25) and dizygotic (DZ, N = 16) twins (22.4 +/- 3.7 yr) participated in a 10-wk resistance training program for the elbow flexors. The evidence for genotype*training interaction, or association of interinidividual differences in training effects with the genotype, was tested by a two-way ANOVA in the MZ twins and using a bivariate model-fitting approach on pre- and post-training phenotypes in MZ and DZ twins. One repetition maximum (1RM), isometric strength, and concentric and eccentric moments in 110 [degrees] arm flexion at velocities of 30 s-1, 60 s-1, and 120 s-1 were evaluated as well as arm muscle cross-sectional area (MCSA).

Results: Results indicated significant positive training effects for all measures except for maximal eccentric moments. Evidence for genotype*training interaction was found for 1 RM and isometric strength, with MZ intra-pair correlations of 0.46 and 0.30, respectively. Bivariate model-fitting indicated that about 20% of the variation in post-training 1 RM, isometric strength, and concentric moment at 120 s-1 was explained by training-specific genetic factors that were independent from genetic factors that explained variation in the pretraining phenotype (30-77%).

Conclusions: Genetic correlations between measures of pre- and post-training strength were indicative for high pleiotropic gene action and minor activation of training-specific genes during training.

 

[Beefcake]

Hey Tim, I've been noticing that almost everytime I run for any extended period of time my right calf cramps up so bad I can barely walk after I stop moving. I make sure I stretch VERY well before any activities and I tried using Rub A535, Tiger Balm, Icy Hot, etc. before and after, but they just don't seem to work.

Keep in mind that I'm a big guy and have equally as big calfs (around 23 - 23 1/2 inches). What would you reccomend I do to try and prevent this cramping from happening, or if it does, what can I do to help it after?

Any advice you can give would be great

 

[tim290280]

Cramps can be from a few things and are usually expressed in the extremities more, such as in the calf or foot. Cramps are usually categorized into four major types: "true" cramps; tetany; contractures; and dystonic cramps.

True cramps are caused by hyperexcitability of the nerves and are the most common type. These are associated with injury, activity/repetitive use, rest, dehydration, low blood calcium or magnesium (from poor diet, diuretics, hyperventilation, poor assimilation of nutrients, parathyroid gland disorder), low potassium, contractures (from depleted ATP), poor fitness and flexibility, and some medications.

So stretching and massage can help relieve symptoms of a cramp, you really have to assess your overall health to address why you get them. So you would have to look at how much water you are taking in, whether you are getting enough electrolytes, especially after activity were you sweat, whether you are fit enough, whether you have a vitamin D deficiency (blocking potassium uptake) and the like.

At a guess if you are a big dude then I would say that you are probably not fit enough to run bearing so much load on the calf. But this is just a guess.

 

[Beefcake]

Thanks Tim! Much appreciated.

It's not from dehydration, that's for sure. I'm drinking at least 7L of Reverse Osmosis water a day. I assmue it's because I'm quite heavy. 314lbs to be exact.

I'm a football(american) player, so I have to run just as much as everyone else does. Can you suggest something that will take the stress off it, short of losing weight. (I can't really lose any weight because I need to stay XXXL for the season)

 

[tim290280]

Reverse osmosis water can actually have a lack of solutes (depending on the level of screen pass) so salts could still be an issue. Try the sports drinks or the solute replacement powder stuff that you can put into the water. Have that after or during activity, or as 1-2L of your water intake.

If it is fitness then you need to get fitter. One of the things that struck me about NFL was how it would be a really good and exciting game if it didn't stop all the time. I'd suggest that you could do some interval training done with continuous activity, especially hill runs.

Of course you should probably have a chat to the team doctor about this too.

 

[tim290280]

Interesting study that Eric Cressey sent;

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206. Links
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.
Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu

The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

Clearly you should consider consuming a pre-workout shake. I personally don't care much about supplements and when to consume them. Obviously PWO I have a protein+creatine shake but that is because it is easier/quicker to eat than dinner. I'd have it before but they would probably come back up during training (unless I consumed it at work before hand which isn't likely to happen).

 

[Unregistered]

You seriously tried to argue with me while you haven't even all Tipton papers? If you didn''t even read all his work, it's a safe bet to say you might occasionally read a paper now and then? And when you've read one paper on a subject you think you know it all?

You are not dumb Tim, and you actually read some science which is more than most trainees can say. But your ego is way bigger that the knowledge you bring to the table. Just drop the attitude ok?

BTW, read the whole paper, this one is hardly practical IRL

 

[tim290280]

You seriously tried to argue with me while you haven't even all Tipton papers? If you didn''t even read all his work, it's a safe bet to say you might occasionally read a paper now and then? And when you've read one paper on a subject you think you know it all?

I posted this out of interest, nothing more, nothing less.

I wasn't arguing with your "knowledge", you were deliberately reading the parts of an abstract (not the whole paper) that was a driving point, not the actual research finding. Any scientist would actually be able to distinguish this fact. I doubt you are a scientist because your conclusions are the opposite of what a trained scientist would interpret.

You are not dumb Tim, and you actually read some science which is more than most trainees can say. But your ego is way bigger that the knowledge you bring to the table. Just drop the attitude ok?

Actually I'm a published research scientist, am currently revising finals drafts of my PhD, and this field is a hobby. I've spent a lot of time reading science rather than lay articles. I have never claimed more than this and am more than willing to learn. But I won't be swayed by ad hominem, argument from authority or observational selection without actual factual evidence. You are the one with the attitude that doesn't actually bring any support for his arguments.

BTW, read the whole paper, this one is hardly practical IRL

You are accusing me of not reading whole papers There's a saying about pots calling kettles that you should become familiar with. I never said it was of invaluable use to people but shows support for some of the pre-workout supplement claims, hence the terms "interesting" and "consider" rather than "valuable" and "should".

Seriously if you are what you say you are then you have a lot to contribute to this forum. So far you haven't done anything but quote my posts and call me names. How about you start posting some information and contributing rather than trying to build straw men. You also have no sense of humour or cannot interpret one from a post; it's why we have

 

[Unregistered]

Don't start that whole paper crap on me again Tim, it's my job to read it. And not a paper a week like you are doing, but to read everything on subjects. You say this is your hobby intrest, which means I must be pretty close to the truth when I said you just read an occasional paper.

Futhermore, in which field is your PhD? I'm pretty sure it's not in something medical. Other fields have drastic diffrent set ups, so a degree in one field says little about your capabilities to read other types of research.

BTW, I could put ''intresting' and ''consider'' in all advice I gave aswell, and that way never be wrong when someone shows my mistakes :wutyousay:

Now go read the whole paper, you didn't.

 

[tim290280]

Don't start that whole paper crap on me again Tim, it's my job to read it. And not a paper a week like you are doing, but to read everything on subjects. You say this is your hobby intrest, which means I must be pretty close to the truth when I said you just read an occasional paper.

Futhermore, in which field is your PhD? I'm pretty sure it's not in something medical. Other fields have drastic diffrent set ups, so a degree in one field says little about your capabilities to read other types of research.

BTW, I could put ''intresting' and ''consider'' in all advice I gave aswell, and that way never be wrong when someone shows my mistakes :wutyousay:

Now go read the whole paper, you didn't.

Science is science. Just because the background is different doesn't mean you can't learn. Now you can have good and bad scientists, and certain fields, like exercise science, are rife with them.

And I did read the whole paper, that is why I pasted the abstract.

Seriously is that you Jorn? This is kinda pathetic.

 

[Samoan-Z]

Is this about wide and narrow stanced squating?

If so it's common knowledge amongest powerlifters that more wieght can be lifted with a wide stance than a narrow.

I don't know the science behind it just the experience...saw a bunch of research threads forgive me for not reading them.

 

[Samoan-Z]

Oh nvm.... cramps....i'd suggest bananas good soruce of potassium or just a potassium supplement.

 

[tim290280]

Is this about wide and narrow stanced squating?

If so it's common knowledge amongest powerlifters that more wieght can be lifted with a wide stance than a narrow.

I don't know the science behind it just the experience...saw a bunch of research threads forgive me for not reading them.

The actual involvement of the quads doesn't change is the finding. But the reason why wide stance allows you to lift more weight is down to the increased involvement of the muscles of the hips (very powerfull) and the improved leverage of the hip due to less angle in the upper body.

Oh nvm.... cramps....i'd suggest bananas good soruce of potassium or just a potassium supplement.

Bananas are a good one, didn't think of that

 

[Samoan-Z]

OH YEAH... when i played american football in high school as a fat lineman you easily cramp banana's became a regular part of a diet... along with 42oz. steaks couple tbl spoons of bread fried in fatback and about 100 penuts Mmmm just kidding... but banana were seriously part of my everday diet, my mom got pissed cause i went through them like water.


And yea that makes sense i did notice sore hips in the wide over the narrow for quad striking.

 

[Beefcake]

42oz. steaks couple tbl spoons of bread fried in fatback and about 100 penuts

That's weak.

My meals the other day looked like this:

1lb Hamsteak w/ 4 whole eggs and 1/3lb of hashbrowns. 4 slices of Light Rye Toast

3 Chicken Pita Wraps w/ light mayo (each wrap weighed around 1/2lb of JUST chicken and Mayo)

A boost shake after 3rd period

1 1/2 lbs of Chicken and Mushroom Soup Rice and a baked potato w/ fresh maple bacon bits

It was a good day