Official MMA News/Discussion Thread

[onebigeric]

The sad thing is, moments like that are never repeated. Take Forrest and Bonnar; their first fight was beyond incredible, but the second just fell short a bit.

That's why we have VCR's, though

Biggest surprise for me though was Cote's complete lack of offense. For all his talk of training on the ground and avoiding the takedown, Lutter really took him down in short order. Where do you think he stepped wrong CC(and everyone else)?

 

[CaptainCharisma]

I think Cote just really underestimated Lutters BJJ...i personally think he could be like a mini-Frank Mir (with the idea that hes dangerous as hell on the ground, but only till he gasses...which is after the first round) either way, im glad he won, even though i like Cote; Silva would murder him, Lutter at least has a chance...slim one but still.

 

[fallen]

the ultimate fight night was a let down for me except for the ko of Pete Cell

 

[onebigeric]

Complete Card Results:


Turns out two judges scored the final 30-27 for Serra, and the other scored 30-27 for Lytle. That's an incompetent travesty right there. I don't know where they're pulling these 'judges' from, but they need to find a credible source for them. How do three people see a fight so differently? I've watched the bout twice more, and I honestly can't see a round that Serra came close to winning, let alone swept; keep in mind I really wanted him to win this going in. My previous wants notwithstanding, Serra lost this fight.

Lytle:
-Owned striking and standup by far
-Had insane takedown defense; it wasn't until the third round that Serra scored a clean takedown
-Actually took Serra to the ground much more than the other way around
-Didn't gas at all
-Excellent submission/ground defense as well; slipped right out of an attempted triangle by Matt, and guarded attempted ground-n-pound masterfully
-Didn't really try for many submissions though

Serra:
-Mean looking strikes; too bad he missed with nearly all of them, especially that superman punch...again...and again...and again....
-For all his vaunted BJJ hype, he couldn't get the takedown
-He didn't gas; he was a trooper all the way through
-He had one seemingly excellent submission locked in, but Lytle slipped right out; too bad that was the only real submission Serra tried
-He was kept at range for nearly the entire fight; while he kept Chris from really teeing off on him, that's a small psuedo-victory in what was a shut-out on standup
-When he had the takedown, he couldn't capitalize at all; although that stand-up shouldn't have happened when Serra was raising him up, but overall it didn't really impact the fight as many thought it had

All in all, I went in wanting Serra to win; what we got though was wrong. Chris Lytle had a clean three round sweep, yet he was butchered with a blatantly slanted and moronic split decision. The more I've thought about it, the more I feel that in my opinion it was a worse decision than Grove and Herman. Stinking politics and idiotic puppet judges

 

[CaptainCharisma]

i swear all they gotta do is get rid of Cecil Peoples...that man is retarted, he has made the worst decisions i have ever seen, listening to what he scores a bout is always a joy to see

 

[onebigeric]

^^Truly. I'm glad they've seemed to kick the Eddie Bravo junk as well

On a side note, Fedor's brother was choked out at the recent 2H2H event. I feel he's fairly overrated; thoughts and opinions?

 

[CaptainCharisma]

Aleks never really went up against a top notch ground guy in PRIDE to my memory (cept Barnett, but i dont remember that fight doing much on the ground) also theres not much shame in being choked out by Werdum, the guys probly one of the best ground guys at HW besides Big Nog...that being said he may be a tad overated when overall hype is concerned, but his stand up is solid as hell (specially his hand speed) and being Fedors brother im sure his ground game would come up in time as well

 

[CaptainCharisma]

by the way, Spike TV has Matt Hughes All Access on tonight, 11:00 eastern time i believe, i dont have Spike, but a buddy of mine is gonna try and tape it for me, if he does ill post that badboy up...i wouldve liked a GSP All Access too, but Matt's better than nothing

 

[fallen]

I agree with all of what you said but i do think that with the take down and the slow pace of the match that Serra could have one round 3. with that being said there is no way in hell he won the fight.

 

[JS316]

Damn I never got a chance to see the finals.. but judging by what u guys have posted sounds like serra got a gift.. that sux cos i was really pulling for Lytle.. and Lutter had another dominant win by the sounds of it too.

On the Aleks topic.. it is interesting that his ground game seems not great as he trains with his brother.. Werdrum is world class all the same and almost caught Nog a few times in the Grand prix with a choke.

 

[onebigeric]

Fedor's bro definitely has some excellent hands, but his lack of real ground depth has puzzled me somewhat. Fedor will probably address that thoroughly though

Kazushi Sakuraba-Legend or hype? I'll hold my opinion for now...

 

[JS316]

Saku.. definately a legend of the sport.
I'm not a huge fan of his but when he beat royce, it was a definate turning point in MMA. Up till then Royce was thought to be unbeatable and Bjj seemed the unbeatable art.

Since then however he has taken some of the most brutal beatings in Pride history.. (Wandy X2 and Arona)

Definately past his prime now,but cool to see he has been training with wandy and the boys at chutebox recently to improve his striking.Still trying to evolve with the times is something I do admire about him greatly.

 

[onebigeric]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here, but my opinion's in this as well. Here goes.....



Royce Gracie isn't the MMA legend many have made him out to be.



I know there's huge flame potential in something like this, ergo I'm taking my normal structured approach in the face of a comment of this nature.

Many have hailed Royce as one of the greats of MMA; a father of the sport if you will. I recognize this Gracie in a similar light, but not for the same reasons that others do. I really like Royce Gracie, and he truly is an amazing practitioner of BJJ. MMA though....not so much. Here's my devil's spiel on why not.

Royce Gracie was a strong presence in the early UFC, walking away the undisputed Champion of their first three of four events. An amazing force....or was he?

Gracie introduced the world to BJJ, which I feel is his true lasting contribution to the sport. He amazed in venues where nearly every other fight was weird guys in wife beaters knocking the crap out of each other, interspread with men in Gi's doing basically the same thing.

Ground work was not a practiced art at that time, ergo BJJ came in and blew everything else away. What chance do you have as a striker when you're on your back? I studied Ed Parker's American Kenpo from the age of seven until I was twenty two, and I kid you not when I state that I NEVER learned a single thing concerning ground defense/attack during my time in that art; 'don't get taken down' was as far as it got. That's scary and really not rare among most striking arts, and precisely why I feel Royce was so dominant in those early days.

He basically brought a gun to a knife fight. Virtually every person he was matched up with had little to absolutely no ground savvy; how could they have competed with an artist like Royce? They couldn't....

And then came Kimo.

For the first time, Royce ran into someone who defended against his takedowns. All of a sudden, his straight ticket to takedown and dominance was challenged. No more quick and bloodless wins, as he had over Ken Shamrock(you all know how I feel about Ken). He eveantually won the fight, but Kimo made him pay for it. So much so that he threw in the towel before his next bout really started, giving Harold Howard the easy and unimagineable duke.

He went onto take the next tournament, which culminated in(my opinion) the biggest win of his career; Dan Severn via triangle choke. Unfortunately, everyone else was learning the ground game; Royce on the other hand wasn't learning his striking like he should've. On came Ken Shamrock for round two, and sadly enough, it was all downhill for Royce from that point on

Ken thoroughly dominated Royce in their second bout; gone was the younger man who blundered his way into a choke at UFC 1. Here was a composed man with devestating strikes coupled with a ground education that matched Royce's own. It shouldn't have been a draw(a trend that will repeat itself), but a draw it was. The thought of giving Royce a loss in what was supposed to be his last fight in the UFC was not acceptable to the powers that be. So a tinged decision cast a shadow of doubt on Gracie; one that would take him from the scene for the next five years.

His explosive entry to Pride in 2000 saw him receive a token opponent in Nobuhiko Takada. Even coming from five years away, no one thought Takada had a ghost of a chance. Royce deserved better than that. Then came Sakuraba, and the legendary bout that ensued can be found at the forefront of the mind of any real fan of MMA. It was incredible, but again, it showed more and more that Royce was a one-dimensional fighter compared to the newer generation.

Then came another 'draw', followed by a completely one-ended sideshow bout with Akebono. Did anyone truly think Chad had a sliver of hope in this? Once again, Dream Stage strived to feed and make bank on the Gracie fever as had the early UFC. Problem was, holes were starting to appear. The Gracies were not changing with the times, ergo they were being left behind.

After Akebono, we have another 'draw'. All three fighters on the other end of that decision haven't had another since. Only with Royce did they have a draw. Coincidence? Sadly, no. Royce deserved much better than that

Then came Matt Hughes; the bout that Royce may never really recover from. Shamrock took him out of the UFC(and MMA for five years), and Sakuraba took him out of Pride for three years. Obviously Royce hasn't dealt well with his losses. One of this magnitude may see him hang it up for good, although I truly hope not.

Matt out-wrestled him, out-positioned him, out-struck him, out-thought him, and simply out-fought Royce Gracie. A number of unimagineable things happened that night, which included Royce giving up his back and getting pounded into oblivion. All of a sudden, many saw that Gracie wasn't as unstoppable as they'd thought. His ground game was still there, but so was a lot of others'. Even though Gracie was locked and loaded in his prime element, Matt's was simply better. The thing that made his commanding loss even worse was the amazing amount of trash Gracie talked before the fight itself; lines like "This is my house, I built it" and "I'll submit him, pick him up, take my belt, and send him home." Hollow lines in the face of the final result.

Royce Gracie is a true legend in the world of BJJ. He truly raised the bar for the entire world of MMA. He's an amazing martial artist as well, and nothing will ever change that in my mind. But was he a true mixed martial artist? I don't really believe so. Where others adapted and progressed in other areas, he basically stayed the same. He was gradually eclipsed, no matter how much others didn't want it to happen; eg questionable 'draw' calls. Of the 'old guard', as I like to call them(Frye, Royce, Shamrock, and Severn), he improved the least over the years. He was incredible to start with, but in the end it just wasn't enough without evolving in the sport. Hence my feeling that Royce is truly amazing in the world of BJJ, but not really so much in the world of MMA.

So there's my spiel, consisting of a little devil's advocate and a little me. Discuss

 

[CaptainCharisma]

I pretty much agree with that opinion on Royce. He began the movement of a good ground game, and for that he deserves credit; but he was stubborn and refused to evolve. Nonetheless i think his initial contribution to the sport makes him a legend...but not his fights for the most part, he was beating guys who had no experience with his game. I believe someone like Randy Couture is more of a legend than Royce...but then thats my opinion in'it?

 

[JS316]

Normally id say 'we'll have to agree to disagree', but i value your opinions so I want to try and change them ( a bit).
At the time of the early UFC's those competitors admittedly looked like bar room brawlers compared to the rounded athletes there are today. But at that time alot of those guys were trained fighters at their own artform. Ground fighting was not really heard of in America and was the reason Royce won 2 tournaments in about 6-7 mins total.
Just because these other figters were clueless on the ground is not Royces' fault.
Regardless of style, for a small man like Royce to beat Kimo was groundbreaking.
The impact Royce had on the MMA world was massive. BJJ and the Gracies took Martial Arts by storm.

He was the first to mould the sport...
Severn added more with werstling... then Coleman with GnP.. (and frye a bit).. then Couture with his 'dirty boxing' when he beat Vitor.

BJJ is still a huge part of the sport today..all started by Royce.. a fighter without it is in trouble.
Therefore he is a legend

 

[onebigeric]

Most definitely JS, and thank you I think we're hitting on much of the same opinion here. Royce is, and forever will be, a legend to me. I just don't think his 'greatest MMA fighter of all time' tag is very accurate. As being the man who gave the martial world a much needed wake-up call and basically revolutionized the sport(thankfully!!!) of MMA; that's Royce Gracie the Legend to me.

I didn't mean to imply that he had an unfair edge over other competitors, only that he was bringing something to the game that no one could compete with. But when others molded their styles accordingly, that gap of awesomeness seemed to shrink year by year. I really wish Royce would've felt the need to discover some striking; if he'd polished said skill, I feel he could've put some authority and credibility into truly being one of the all time greats of complete MMA. Since he didn't, he's been an amazing BJJ competitor jumping into mixed martial arts.

He introduced BJJ to MMA, not to mention the world as a whole. That's his legacy to me and where his real legend status resides.


Edit-Good call on Sakuraba. I've always been a big fan of his; even more so after his amazing match with Royce. Add Cro Cop to his list of horrible beatings and the list gets even more impressive. Just like you said though, his desire to evolve and improve is what really sets him apart. I feel he'll be making waves for years to come.

 

[onebigeric]

Good call fist; downloaded that from Sherdog yesterday. Having Lutter on the show was cool as well. I wish he was still representing with the Lion's Den, but I guess he felt the need to go elsewhere.

When was it that Hughes 'disrespected' GSP? He's making it sound like an everyday thing. Although GSP is sounding a little like a broken record at this point, but maybe it's the higher exposure this fight's getting as well. It just seems like I've heard him say the same things concerning this bout over and over again.

All in the same, talk will be cheap tomorrow.

 

[onebigeric]

Well, I better throw up my predictions here as well; thought I'd abstain from the rectum bets though

Hughes vs. St. Pierre

I was pretty down the line going into this fight, but then I heard GSP's comments concerning it in a Sherdog interview. He said he was angry at Matt Hughes, and would use said emotion come Saturday. He'd 'let his fury' guide him in the bout. That reminds me of another couple of fighters...oh yeah, Shamrock and Randleman. Anger hasn't worked for them, and it won't for Rush. He has the skills to beat Matt, but it sounds like he's blown his chances mentally. Ergo, I give the likely nod to Hughes.

Sylvia vs. Monson

Tim's stand-up and reach are big advantages for him here, but his sprawl isn't as good as many feel it is. If Monson can close quickly and use his lower center to take Sylvia down, the belt's changing hands. I feel Tim's no match for Jeff mentally, due to his cockiness and delusions of grandeur. We'll just have to see if the Snowman can keep it together come Saturday.

Vera vs. Mir

I feel Frank still isn't back yet. He's looked really sloppy in the last little while, and word on the street is that he's becoming more and more lazy in the gym. If he ever wants to get within spitting distance of the title again, he'll suck it up and get his act back together. I feel Vera will provide that wake-up call for him, one way or the other.

Sakara vs. McFederies

Legionarius has this in the bag, unless he makes a huge mistake. He was choked out at UFC 60, but I believe he will bounce back well from that. Drew's only real distinction is getting TKO'd by Nate Quarry at EC43; not a strong foundation there. It's TKO time again for him, I feel.

Stevenson vs. Mishima

Despite all the hype concerning Joe in TUF2, I feel his win over Cummo was the first real gift win that series suffered. Neer took him out, and he was very lucky in his fight with Yves. Mishima has been a consistent and successful force in both Pride and Shooto, and he can really go the distance. Joe's been cracking under the pressure and getting lucky gifts; I just feel his number is up again.

Diaz vs. Tibau

Tibau's a virtual unknown to me, but he's apparently quite the force in BJJ. If Nick can stay frosty on the ground, I see his edge in UFC experience carrying him through this fight. That, and if he loses, we have to listen to more tantrums

The other fights can fall as they may; I really don't have any opinions concerning them. Excited about tomorrow though

 

[CaptainCharisma]

Well, I better throw up my predictions here as well; thought I'd abstain from the rectum bets though

I think my predictions are pretty well known, but ill go into a bit more depth;

St. Pierre over Hughes

I've heard every single interview these 2 men have done since their last fight, and watched every bit of relevant and irrelevant footage uptil this monumental fight. I can honestly say this is probably the most excited i have been for a fight in a long time, and the first time it's really hard to pick one man for the clear winner. But from what i've gathered, St. Pierre is ready and very capable of taking this badboy. I think he's got the strenght, talent and just pure athleticism to not only take Hughes to the edge, but also take his strap from him. War GSP, i've waited too long for this fight.

Monson over Sylvia

This prediction defies my own logic. Although i realise that Monson has a great chance, and i am not discrediting him in any way...i just don't think this fight is gonna hit the ground. That being said, im still rooting for Monson, if he can close the distance fast and early in the fight he can beat Timmy. But Timmy's team MFS arn't fools, and they will have prepped him for this. This may be a fast fun fight...or an overly draught out boring Sylvia/Arlovski III repeat. Go Monson...just because im still sore over Arlovski.

Mir over Vera

Another prediction that defies all logic. Mir has no advantage besides the first few minutes till he inevitably gasses. If it gets past the first round, it's Vera's, within in the first 4-5 mins Mir is a monster. I'm just praying for a Mir rebirth.

Sakara vs. McFederies
Stevenson vs. Mishima
Diaz vs. Tibau

Pretty much the exact same thing that OBE said...nuff said lol. Oh and the Diaz fight may not be brodcasted, acutally it probly won't. Unless someone else finishes fast we won't see it. I hope we do, cause that's supposed to be a real good match-up.

 

[CaptainCharisma]

just to say, Frank Mir weighed in at 254...for reference he was 255 when he fought Sylvia

come on Frankie, whoop some ass then go break Sylvias other arm