Dropping the Nuclear bombs on Japan: necessary?

[El Freako]

The truth is clear from wikipedia?

LOL


The numbers are truthful enough.


You don't read very well.

I read pretty damn well actually.


Let me explain my posts in the simplest way possible: Japan has done a horrible job of representing its involvment in WWII. I know this through first hand experience. It doesn't have to be this way. I know plenty of Germans who are well-educated and informed about the atrocities committed by their country in WWII. Having taught history in an inner city school, I can say that American schools are at least trying to teach about the terrible things done by the United States in WII.

I was never arguing any of these points, my beef was with you seemingly trying to pass all blame and recriminations over the atomic bombings onto the Japanese and saying they were not victims in any way. As I said, this is not a clear cut case and neither side is clear of blame. You neglected to address this issue at all. The USA dropped the bombs that killed all those innocent people. It may have been for the greater good to a large degree but all those people who died and all their families would not be able to accept that as a reasonable validation I'm sure.

Not sure where you drew this conclusion from. As I said in my first post, my biggest beef Japan's willful ignorance. I never said I didn't feel compassion for Mrs. Yamaoka, other Japanese civilians, or any of the Korean slave laborers at Hiroshima.

I will withdraw that statement I made then. It was just that you neglected to mention whether you felt any empathy for the victims of the bombings.

My points stands; Japan is doing a terrible job of educating its youth about WWII. The monbugakusho puts waaaaay too much importance on the atomic bombs. Most students in Japan have no idea why most of Asia still hates them. When high ranking government officials also make claims that certain events never took place during WWII, I feel like tearing my hair out. No matter how many times you quote wikipedia, you're not going to change the fact that most Japanese people are ignorant of their countries crimes in WWII.



I am in full agreeance, this was not something I was debating.

What can I say? Try teaching in Japan for a few years and get back to me.

This was a dream of mine and my wife's for many years. I am envious of your experiences.

Anyways, you're pretty bad at drawing meaning from my posts. I advise you to think a little bit more before responding again.

I took a great deal of time with my response actually, I read it over and re-read it. I'm aware of the point you made and I responded to them all I believe. I'm also aware of the points in my argument you circumvented, which were some of the more important points I was trying to get across. If anything you exposed your own faults as a debater by not responding to these. If you ignore something it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or didn't happen (like Japan try to do).

Personally, I'm sick of hearing about the atomic bombs. We seem to place special importance on Hiroshima and Nagasaki because a single weapon killed so many, yet fail to give equal attention to crimes where larger numbers of people were killed, perhaps more slowly and more cruelly, by thousands of individuals.

The bombs are just one of many horrible atrocities that humankind has inflicted upon its brothers and sisters in recent times. Ignoring any of them would be reprehensible of us as a society, but today the topic of discussion is the bombing of Japan.

If and when you do respond to this would you please address the main point of my argument. Neither Japan nor America is free from recrimination in this issue. Japan may have brought it upon themselves to a large degree by being the aggressors in the conflict but the magnitude and horror of the response by America (Over 200,000 dead, mostly civilians) cannot be ignored. How can you say that the Japanese were not victims in this way? Japan is not just its leaders or its soldiers. Those women and children did not deserve to die, no matter the result. They are victims.

I await your reply.

 

[lifterdead]

How can you say that the Japanese were not victims in this way? Japan is not just its leaders or its soldiers. Those women and children did not deserve to die, no matter the result. They are victims.

Put this way, I totally agree with you. The impetus, then, is on me to clarify my point. Japanese people as individuals are certainly victims, both of the US and their own government's totalitarian regime. I could not agree more. I would still, however, place considerable blame on the authorities in power then, and those who still perpetuate fallicies.





This raises a good question for our Ron Paul crew; how responsible are people for their own government? Should all German people take blame for the Holocost? Should all Americans take the blame for Bush's failed policies?

 

[El Freako]

Put this way, I totally agree with you. The impetus, then, is on me to clarify my point. Japanese people as individuals are certainly victims, both of the US and their own government's totalitarian regime. I could not agree more. I would still, however, place considerable blame on the authorities in power then, and those who still perpetuate fallicies.



Totally. I'll shake hands on that. And I much agree that Japan commits a great crime by ignoring its own horrible past.



This raises a good question for our Ron Paul crew; how responsible are people for their own government? Should all German people take blame for the Holocost? Should all Americans take the blame for Bush's failed policies?

That's a tough one to answer properly. Surely those that voted such people into power should feel in some way responsible for having done so (in particular, those behind Hitler's rise to power). But going as far as to blame them for their leader's acts is a bit of a difficult proposition.

I'm going to have to think this over more.

 

[lifterdead]

I'm going to have to think this over more.

Me too. I wonder what IS thinks?

 

[El Freako]

Me too. I wonder what IS thinks?

Probably a lot. IS thinks a lot about everything. He probably has to debate with himself whether to wipe from front to back or from back to front after taking a dump.

J/k IS, Don't fry me with your powerful brainwaves.

 

[Ironslave]

I've actually studied the Holocaust... I can put up a paper I wrote last year....

Truth be told... the Holocaust was NOT Hitler's doing just because he was this evil leader. In truth, it was mostly the doctors who persuaded him to allow it. From there, what went on was more so the doing of others. They actually rationed using Social Darwinism that it would be good for their country, because they considered the Jewish to be the "weak link", and considered them responsible for the loss in WW1 and the crash. They reasoned they could improve the "natural selection" by eliminating them.

But, this was the last step (called, the "final solution", fittingly). They actually stressed that all citizens exercise, eat well, and they were the first nation to research the harmful effects of smoking. They just fell down the slippery slope...

For what it's worth though, America entered the war before these camps and such were occuring. I'll read through the rest of the posts now, seems like a good thread

 

[Braaq]

I've actually studied the Holocaust... I can put up a paper I wrote last year....

Truth be told... the Holocaust was NOT Hitler's doing just because he was this evil leader. In truth, it was mostly the doctors who persuaded him to allow it. From there, what went on was more so the doing of others. They actually rationed using Social Darwinism that it would be good for their country, because they considered the Jewish to be the "weak link", and considered them responsible for the loss in WW1 and the crash. They reasoned they could improve the "natural selection" by eliminating them.

But, this was the last step (called, the "final solution", fittingly). They actually stressed that all citizens exercise, eat well, and they were the first nation to research the harmful effects of smoking. They just fell down the slippery slope...

For what it's worth though, America entered the war before these camps and such were occuring. I'll read through the rest of the posts now, seems like a good thread

Yeah, please post that paper. I have a chance in taking a Holocaust history class. These new facts your just presented makes me want to take the course, would you recommend?

 

[Ironslave]

Yeah, please post that paper. I have a chance in taking a Holocaust history class. These new facts your just presented makes me want to take the course, would you recommend?

I found it interesting. Most of this is on the medical history aspect during the nazi era, as it was a medical history class. But, i found it VERY interesting. You'll see quotes where the doctors said things like "it is with great excitement that with Hitler many of our goals (killing jews) can now come true", something like that.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=URFN6CBG

 

[Ironslave]

I don't think it was a good thing that we dropped a bomb that killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. I am just arguing the side of necessity for dropping the bomb. Of course there could have been other options, but with several variables at stake it was the best for the US at the time. If Japan was really ready to surrender as you say, then why did they not surrender when threatened with annihilation and after the first bomb was dropped??

Also, I do not mean to be overly patriotic. I am aware that we are the "playground bully" of the world and that is something I wish we would change.

Respect for your last paragraph.

Thing is, Japan WAS ready to surrender. In January 1945, they presented an offer to America with conditions to surrender, America said no, but to my knowledge, this was exactly the same conditions that were finally accepted after dropping the bomb. The big sticking point was they wanted to keep their Monarchy, and preferably their emperor in power. There were many other reasons involved, such as America wanting to empower China in their struggle against Japan. But, though it's been said before, America DID want to Flex its muscles to the soviets, but also to the Germans, as America thought it was further along in the development of its nuclear weapons program. According to former State Department employee William Blum and others, Japan had tried to surrender for several months, but the U.S. wanted to test nuclear weapons in war and, most importantly, show its power to the Soviet Union. (1)



Really, America wanted to enter the war for many reasons, to protect its interests as I mentioned in my last post, but they also really wanted war with Germany. (Keep in mind, this was before the first concentration camps were started, so America didn't enter the war because of that).


Here are a few of the Japanese attempts to end the war in July: ( I got these from this book)

July 11: "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result of the war; we hope to terminate the war".
July 12: "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".
July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" (for above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879).
July 18: "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for negotiations with England and America." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government." The July 21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 26: Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).



"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."

---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II


1) Tim Weiner, "U.S. Spied on its World War II Allies," New York Times, Aug. 11, 1993, p.9

 

[Ironslave]

This raises a good question for our Ron Paul crew; how responsible are people for their own government? Should all German people take blame for the Holocost? Should all Americans take the blame for Bush's failed policies?

Thing was, as I alluded to, the German's were convinced that it was the best thing for their country. They blamed the Jews for the loss of the first war and the economic collapse. At the time, they used social Darwinism to justify it. He started off trying to make the population as strong, healthy, and productive as possible, until he went to the "final solution".

Am I defending them? Of course not. However, it wasn't done just because they were "evil people". I guess in desperate times, people can rationalize just about anything.