Growth after a cycle?

[GetSize]

Sup Fellas been a while since I posted. Hope all is well with everyone Its been about a little more then a year since I competed in my first show. Since then I've continued to train. But for some reason after the show I became lazy and my diet was not consistent as it always was. In addition to not eatting I wasnt taking any gear since the 20 week cycle I ran during my diet for the show. Months later I decided to do another cycle to put size back on. I started at 180lbs. I went all the way back up to 228 in 16 weeks. After this cycle Ive been clean and have been off for 6 months. In these 6 months I have not stopped training at all. My question is has anyone trained for long periods of time without taking gear and still see results/improvements?

Because Now I'm more in tune with my body (mind to muscle connection) and get better works outs. I have never been "clean" for so long. But now I can feel when something is hurting me etc. I'm just wondering is it possible that I can still grow or will my body need to rely on high doses of test?

 

[Duality]

this is a good question man, but i gotta tell you i don't think you're gonna like the answer. and that answer is, not really no man. you my make very modest yearly gains to the tune of maybe 3-5lbs of muscle (which is something to be proud of) but nothing substantial or anywhere near what you'd achieve with gear. but the good news is, if you keep training, and eating, you won't lose anything either. not once have i lost a single pound in my off time. but in all honesty i really don't make any noteworthy gains either. probably because i'm likely past my genetic limit right now at 241lb. and judging by your physique in your avatar, you likely are too.

so yes you can maintain without gear, no you really won't make any kind of gains without it though. but you should ALWAYS train hard and eat right with or without gear if you even want to maintain, let alone grow.

 

[montanamuscle]

good topic!!

 

[The Creator]

Very good topic indeed. Duality touched on some key points. Every body has its genetic limit and you surpass that often times when gear is thrown into the mix. It is at this point that you are mainly going to be training to maintain. After the body has experienced such high levels of testosterone, it wont respond as well naturally however, gains are not impossible. You can still break down muscle and build it back up, it just may be more in terms of refinement rather than size.

 

[youngmusclejock]

"Anabolic Steroids Provide A Competitive Edge In Power Lifting Years After Doping Has Ended"


Anabolic Steroids Provide A Competitive Edge In Power Lifting Years
After Doping Has Ended

ScienceDaily — Anabolic steroids are synthetic hormones derived from the
human male hormone testosterone. The use of steroids has been suspected
in professional baseball and other sports where building muscle
strength, rather than endurance, is paramount. Power lifting is such a
sport.


A team of researchers has examined the impact of anabolic steroid use on
power lifters years after the athletes had ceased to take the drugs. The
researchers found that while physical traces of the drug no longer
remained, changes in the shoulder and quadriceps still gave lifters an
advantage years later.

The research was conducted by Anders Eriksson and Lars-Eric Thornell,
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section conducted the study
for Anatomy, Umea University, Umea, Sweden; Christer Malm, Umeå
University and Winternet and Patrik Bonnerud, Department of Health
Science, Section for Medical Science, Lulea University of Technology,
Lulea, Sweden; and Fawzi Kadi, Department of Physical Education and
Health, Orebro University, Orebro, Sweden.

Dr. Eriksson will discuss the team’s study, “Anabolic Steroids
Withdrawal in Strength Trained Athletes: How Does It Affect Skeletal
Muscles?,” at a conference sponsored by the American Physiological
Society. The conference, The Integrative Biology of Exercise V, will be
held September 24-27, 2008 in Hilton Head, SC.

Background

Power lifting is a strength sport, requiring the use of a heavy dumbbell
to perform three repetitions each of a squat, a bench press and a dead
lift. It is in some ways similar to weight lifting, but where
weightlifting is a dynamic sport, power lifting is a static one.

Power lifters focus on body strength, which relies heavily on muscle.
The body’s main muscle fiber types: type I, type IIA and type IIB. Type
I is the weakest and slowest, but has the most endurance. Type IIA is
the strongest and fastest, but has the least endurance. Human muscles
occur along a continuum of fiber types. For power lifters, type IIB
fiber, the most powerful, is most frequently used. The use of anabolic
steroids can add more nuclei to the muscle, and enhance muscle fiber size.

The researchers examined data in two muscles: the vastus lateralis,
found in the quadriceps, and the trapezius, a part of the shoulder-neck
muscle. Each muscle is key to power lifting.

Three groups were examined. One group was comprised of seven power
lifters who had previously used anabolic steroids for long periods of
time but stopped their usage some years ago (PREV). One group was
currently power lifting but did not use steroids (P). The third group
was power lifting and taking steroids (PAS). The researchers examined
muscle fiber distribution, fiber area, subsarcolemmal and internal
myonuclei number per fiber, myonuclei expressing androgen receptors,
satellite cell numbers per fiber, and proportion of split fibers in each
muscle for each individual.

Findings

The researchers found that several years after anabolic steroid
withdrawal, and with no or low current strength-training, the muscle
fiber area intensity, the number of nuclei per fiber in the quadriceps
was still comparable to that of athletes that were currently performing
high intensity strength-training. They also discovered that the
shoulder-neck fiber areas were comparable to high-intensity trained
athletes and the number of nuclei per fiber was even higher than found
in the current steroid-using group.

Conclusions

According to the lead researcher, Dr. Eriksson, ”It is possible that the
high number of nuclei we found in the muscle might be beneficial for an
athlete who continues or resumes strength training because increased
myonuclei opens up the possibility of increasing protein synthesis,
which can lead to muscle mass.” He added, “Based on the characteristics
between doped and non-doped power lifters, we conclude that a period of
anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a power lifter in
competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.”

 

[GetSize]

Duality, Creator-Thx for the response fellas! I just wonder how I can be putting on weight without it?! How can I still be lifting heavy weights without it? Thats what confuses me. :wutyousay: Would HGH play in effect to this or any other type of compound that I may have used. I feel that I have actually gained more muscle density or size even without gear. Granted I am nowhere as big as I was when I was 228. So its physically impossible to gain while off gear? Regardless of what I have taken?

Youngmusclejock- Thx for the Article! This is interesting to me as I can somewhat relate to it. Even though I am off gear I feel that am putting on muscle. I wonder what "years" mean when the article refers to the length of anabolic use in these powerlifters in the study? If "years" means 5 plus years would less time of anabolic use have an effect the outcome of the study?

According to the lead researcher, Dr. Eriksson, ”It is possible that the
high number of nuclei we found in the muscle might be beneficial for an
athlete who continues or resumes strength training because increased
myonuclei opens up the possibility of increasing protein synthesis,
which can lead to muscle mass.” He added, “Based on the characteristics
between doped and non-doped power lifters, we conclude that a period of
anabolic steroid usage is an advantage for a power lifter in
competition, even several years after they stop taking a doping drug.”

Anyone think this has any truth to it?

 

[The Creator]

It is definitely not impossible to gain more size off-cycle. I guess it depends on how many cycles you have done and how close your body is to it's "genetic limit" so to speak. Especially if you did a show recently, the following bulk itself will put your body in a very anabolic muscle building environment. My input would be that if you continue to do many cycles, and maintain your gains after cycles, it is unlikely at this point that you will gain a noticeable amount of lean mass naturally. It sounds to me though that you are not yet at this point. If you are gaining naturally right now, great! I would continue to do what you are doing and hit a peak before you get on gear again.

 

[GetSize]

It is definitely not impossible to gain more size off-cycle. I guess it depends on how many cycles you have done and how close your body is to it's "genetic limit" so to speak. Especially if you did a show recently, the following bulk itself will put your body in a very anabolic muscle building environment. My input would be that if you continue to do many cycles, and maintain your gains after cycles, it is unlikely at this point that you will gain a noticeable amount of lean mass naturally. It sounds to me though that you are not yet at this point. If you are gaining naturally right now, great! I would continue to do what you are doing and hit a peak before you get on gear again.

I admit that I started using anabolics prematurely and there was no way that I hit my peak in a years time of training naturally. I wanted to do a show so I hoped on gear. I'm gonna start again in Feb so I can get size before dieting in July. If I can ask how much time do you normally take off between cycles?

 

[The Creator]

I admit that I started using anabolics prematurely and there was no way that I hit my peak in a years time of training naturally. I wanted to do a show so I hoped on gear. I'm gonna start again in Feb so I can get size before dieting in July. If I can ask how much time do you normally take off between cycles?

Im not the one to answer this question. YMJ?

 

[youngmusclejock]

Time on = Time off, that's what most people say, but as we all know there are more things to consider ie.. (compounds used, and such). However, with more and more reading and applying this to my group of friends. Short cycles (burst cycles) seem to be the way to go.

Example: Test Prop

6 weeks on and then 4 weeks off then repeat. What is your previous cycle history look like? What are your goals that you have in mind for your show. Also what are your current stats.

 

[GetSize]

6 weeks on and then 4 weeks off then repeat. What is your previous cycle history look like? What are your goals that you have in mind for your show. Also what are your current stats.

I've done a total of 4 cycles in the past 3 years. 1st and 2nd cycle was basic
16 weeks
Weeks 1-4 Dbols 50mg Test Sust 500mg Deca 250mg
Weeks 4-10 Test Sust 500mg Deca 250mg
Weeks 10-16 T400 800mgs(4 Test Blend....Hurt like hell) Deca 250mg

3rd cycle when I dieted for my show.
16 week
Serostim HGH (All 16 weeks)
Anadrol 50mg tabs (All 16 weeks)
Test Sustanon (First 8 weeks)
Equipose (All 16 Weeks)
Test Suspension and Prop (Last 8 weeks)
Winny V (Last 8 weeks)
Clenbuterol (Last 8 weeks)
I can give the dosages if needed

Last Cycle
16 Weeks
Dbol 50mg (First 8 weeks)
BD Andropen (All 16 weeks)
BD Deca(All 16 weeks)

My goal for my next show is to come in 10lbs heavier to the stage so I can be at the top of the middles. So that would put me at 175. As of last night I am 208lbs. And I'm 5'7".

My last cycle gave me strength and ever since I didnt loose much of it just size. Im wondering that if its possibleI'm making some gains now will my body react even more when I cycle again.

 

[Duality]

dude don't think that you can't train the same way without them. you won't be adding any significant pounds to your lifts, but you can absolutely maintain around 95% of your strength. don't have the mindset that when you go off them your gonna falter. keep hitting it man and you'll hold on to everything. i know i always have.

 

[bambam55]

8 weeks on dbol seems like a long time

 

[Duality]

bambam is right. 8 weeks is too long for dbol. 6 TOPS, i would personally stick to 5 as that's where you see your best results to side effect ratio.

 

[youngmusclejock]

Just my .02 this whole sky if falling about orals is craziness. If 8 weeks was a magically number then most pro's and recreational users would be DEAD! You can look on numerous websites and see liver and blood panels on other sites, they all turned back just fine.

If you look on most medical sites, you'll see that Halo, was meant to be used for numerous months. So, personally unless this guy is showing blood panels with dangerous liver values we can't say that 8 weeks is too long. We are simply going by internet myth and hear say! I respect Duality and bambam's post on the subject but I felt this should be stated. Both are great and knowledgeable members here in the chemical section.

 

[bambam55]

I dont get the purpose of your link... thats about alcohol... please explain ????

 

[Duality]

Just my .02 this whole sky if falling about orals is craziness. If 8 weeks was a magically number then most pro's and recreational users would be DEAD! You can look on numerous websites and see liver and blood panels on other sites, they all turned back just fine.

If you look on most medical sites, you'll see that Halo, was meant to be used for numerous months. So, personally unless this guy is showing blood panels with dangerous liver values we can't say that 8 weeks is too long. We are simply going by internet myth and hear say! I respect Duality and bambam's post on the subject but I felt this should be stated. Both are great and knowledgeable members here in the chemical section.

8 is not a magic number. but it's a good reference point in a cycle to either get your blood levels checked or start to come off. with their 17a alkylation orals are obviously harder on the liver than injectables. that's not a myth. while some people run it much longer for whatever reason, your best results to side effects ratio is seen within the 6-8 week area with orals.

and in reference to halo, i don't know what the medical dosage is intended for those actually using it for the prescribed reason, but i HIGHLY doubt it's the same dosage the bber uses it for for size gains. almost never does science conduct experiments with the same dosages that bodybuilding uses. this makes many studies moot in regards to it's information to the bodybuilder.

 

[youngmusclejock]

I'll need to find that study on halo, but I know it was almost 30 to 40 mgs. It was used to induce delayed puberty in males.

 

[youngmusclejock]

I dont get the purpose of your link... thats about alcohol... please explain ????

Point is the it says in there that BINGE DRINKING takes up to 10 - 15 years to cause liver disease.

Can someone please point me in the direction of the bodies of all the dead bodybuilders with liver disease?

 

[Duality]

Point is the it says in there that BINGE DRINKING takes up to 10 - 15 years to cause liver disease.

Can someone please point me in the direction of the bodies of all the dead bodybuilders with liver disease?

it's called preventitive measures and staying on the safe side. don't be a wise ass. ya you can get away with using tren for 20 weeks straight i'm sure, but it's a stupid as shit decision for your body. unless you are making money off this sport it's just a dumb thing to do.