Split Training - All wrong!

[philosopher]

Also, is there any idea in doing like a heavy day/medium day/light day throughout the week as to stimulate the muscles differently or could a change in exercises for every session handle that better?

Madcow 5×5 is the training program which I recommend you to do once you’re no longer making progress on your Squats with StrongLifts 5×5. It’s aimed at intermediate lifters.

When to switch from StrongLifts 5×5 to Madcow 5×5 depends on your body-weight and age. A 30y old guy weighing around 200lb will usually have to switch after reaching the 300lb Squat. The lighter/heavier you are, the sooner/later the switch to Madcow.

Origins of Madcow. Several years ago “Madcow” was a user at EliteFitness.com who spent many afternoons on the phone with Olympic coach Glenn Pendlay MS. In 2005 he began publishing everything he learned on the defunct Geocities (backup of the website here). Nobody knows who he was, he seemed to have disappeared from all the forums he visited around mid 2007.

The 2 most important works of Madcow were his Intermediate and Advanced training programs. It’s his intermediate training program that is now commonly known as Madcow 5×5. The program is similar to the Texas Method since Madcow spent a lot of time on the phone with the creator of the Texas Method – coach Glenn Pendlay MS himself.

Its a program called the texas method. Atm i'm doing a routine build around this idea. for more info you can always check out my log.

 

[powerhouse-titty]

very good post best ever to be honest

 

[jeromethechicken]

Consider me schooled. Great Thread.

 

[knight_rider]

Your right but keep in mind that these pros are using very helpfull "sups". Split training isnt all wrong. It has worked for years and it will work for some peopel now. Everybody is different and everybody need a different type of stimulation. Tho research has shown that natural athletes benifid more from frequent stimulation like ub/lb or fb.

Not to mention professional bodybuilders have top level gentics for building muscle, their natural ability to recover which is then enhanced with rather serious courses of anabolic's and growth allows them to recover and grow from such high volume workouts! Pro routines wouldn't allow a natural trainer to recover from one day to the next!

we workout to stimulate the release of muscle building chemicals like testosterone and growth etc which in turn cause protein synthesis which repairs and grows new muscle fibre (or increases muscle fibre size). A drug user pumps the protein synthesis triggering chemicals from an outside source which causes growth almost regardless of their training style!

 

[Tuffcheez]

Overhead Dumbbell or Barbell Press: 2 sets of 8 to 10 reps
Squats: 3 sets of 8 to 12 reps
Barbell or Dumbbell Flat Bench Press: 3 sets of 8 reps
Chins or Bent Over Barbell Rows: 3 sets of 8 to 12 reps
Dips or Close Grip Bench Press: 1 to 2 sets of 8 reps
Barbell or Dumbbell Curls: 1 to 2 sets of 8 reps
Standing or Donkey Calf Raises: 2 to 3 sets of 12 to 20 reps

Just completed this routine for the first time today, although I have been training for many years, and I feel wasted!

I am 51 years old and intend training into my 80's. I'll let you know how I get on with this.

 

[Tuffcheez]

I have to say that only after 3 workouts I'm seeing a difference, in the gym and in the mirror. I'm worried about overtraining, as I'm still aching a few days later.

I may be training too hard; I'm having to alternate between squats and deadlifts, as it's not enough time for my legs to recover after squats.

I tend to lift heavy and out of habit reach failure on my last rep. Is going to failure or close to failure something I have to break out of in full body workouts? If I go to failure I know I'm going to ache for a few days later.

Anyway, with the changes I'm experiencing I am looking forward to positive growth, while losing fat around my waist.

 

[TJ]

I tend to lift heavy and out of habit reach failure on my last rep. Is going to failure or close to failure something I have to break out of in full body workouts? If I go to failure I know I'm going to ache for a few days later.

Yes, get away from training to failure; especially in assistance/accessory lifts (anything that is not a squat, deadlift, bench, etc). Training to failure is okay from time to time (right before a de-load, preferably) but never make a habit of it.

 

[Tuffcheez]

Yes, get away from training to failure; especially in assistance/accessory lifts (anything that is not a squat, deadlift, bench, etc). Training to failure is okay from time to time (right before a de-load, preferably) but never make a habit of it.

Thanks, I had a great workout today. I can't believe the gains I'm making in such a short space of time. My metabolism has speeded up, I'm gaining weight while losing fat around my waist. My six pack is making a comeback!

Also a really nice bonus (pardon the pun) side effect, I'm getting wood in the morning.

 

[philosopher]

Thanks, I had a great workout today. I can't believe the gains I'm making in such a short space of time. My metabolism has speeded up, I'm gaining weight while losing fat around my waist. My six pack is making a comeback!

Also a really nice bonus (pardon the pun) side effect, I'm getting wood in the morning.

Enjoy your newbie gains (Loosing fat while gaining muscle) because it will only get harder from now on

 

[Ironslave]

Thanks, I had a great workout today. I can't believe the gains I'm making in such a short space of time. My metabolism has speeded up, I'm gaining weight while losing fat around my waist. My six pack is making a comeback!

Also a really nice bonus (pardon the pun) side effect, I'm getting wood in the morning.

Great to hear that you're getting good results in the gym, and your natural testosterone production appears to be stimulated as well

Enjoy your newbie gains (Loosing fat while gaining muscle) because it will only get harder from now on

... the gains, or the morning wood?

 

[Braaq]

I can't stand the name of this thread, I have attained a great build from Split training and applying the HIT principles to avoid the possibility of "over training" that is very possible from split training.
I know that it is not the best way to make an argument, but every guy I see who does UB/LB or FB splits is small.... just throwing that in there. I would stick with what is proven to work, just be careful because it is easy to "over train" by doing too much with split routines.

 

[philosopher]

I can't stand the name of this thread, I have attained a great build from Split training and applying the HIT principles to avoid the possibility of "over training" that is very possible from split training.
I know that it is not the best way to make an argument, but every guy I see who does UB/LB or FB splits is small.... just throwing that in there. I would stick with what is proven to work, just be careful because it is easy to "over train" by doing too much with split routines.

By saying something like this shows me you didnt even skimmed through this thread. Apart from the titel most of us never doubted the effectiveness of split training we've only said there are better options (Talking about natty's here) from which someone can choose.

 

[philosopher]

... the gains, or the morning wood?

Doesnt matter to me whatever pleases him the most

 

[TJ]

I can't stand the name of this thread, I have attained a great build from Split training and applying the HIT principles to avoid the possibility of "over training" that is very possible from split training.
I know that it is not the best way to make an argument, but every guy I see who does UB/LB or FB splits is small.... just throwing that in there. I would stick with what is proven to work, just be careful because it is easy to "over train" by doing too much with split routines.

What?

I'm actually really surprised to see this type of argument come from you, Braaq. Also, no set routine is going to lead to over-training as this is a CNS condition. You can train everything once every 10 days; if you're doing too much volume you will still over-train.

 

[Duality]

I can't stand the name of this thread, I have attained a great build from Split training and applying the HIT principles to avoid the possibility of "over training" that is very possible from split training.
I know that it is not the best way to make an argument, but every guy I see who does UB/LB or FB splits is small.... just throwing that in there. I would stick with what is proven to work, just be careful because it is easy to "over train" by doing too much with split routines.

THANK. YOU. BLAKE.

seriously you guys can poor over all the scientific jargon you want, but quite honestly i have never seen, nor heard of any lifter attain any kind of size with this training, natty or not. every pro does split training and has done split training since the times of arnold. this is all the science i need to prove it's effectiveness, not to mention the gains it has given myself. so while you guys can banter about how this or that style of training is better, every big guy is stll going to be doing split training.....and getting bigger.

 

[TJ]

For all the people saying frequency based routines don't work for size; check out some of the pics below.


Dave Gulledge

Chuck Vogelpohl

Matt Kroczaleski

Sam Byrd

 

[tim290280]

THANK. YOU. BLAKE.

seriously you guys can poor over all the scientific jargon you want, but quite honestly i have never seen, nor heard of any lifter attain any kind of size with this training, natty or not. every pro does split training and has done split training since the times of arnold. this is all the science i need to prove it's effectiveness, not to mention the gains it has given myself. so while you guys can banter about how this or that style of training is better, every big guy is stll going to be doing split training.....and getting bigger.

Using yourself as an example is moot, as is using pros; all using AAS. As long as you work hard you could get big pushing against a wall.

A point that is also missed with this size argument is that a lot of people who are training full body or upper/lower (or whatever) aren't necessarily aiming to be as big as possible. I personally have never gotten huge because I've never wanted to be much heavier than I am now (my goal size has increased over time, but not by much). I am also not a fan of using illegal substances.

Another point; splits people love to argue about how to allocate exercises. For example, what day do deadlifts go on? Back or legs? Because technically they are an exercise that trains just about all of the body. So if you want to get technical you aren't training splits if you do deadlifts. Ditto cleans, etc.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280



Using yourself as an example is moot, as is using pros; all using AAS. As long as you work hard you could get big pushing against a wall.

no, it's not. and neither is using all my peers who do, and don't juice, but have very respectable if not what i would call big physiques, using split training.

and really, that last sentence is very ignorant and disrespectful to the bber who uses steroids. just to inform you, that is not true. you can't just take steroids and get big, it's only part of the equation, not the solution. this statement was clearly made by a non user with quite a misconception on their use.

A point that is also missed with this size argument is that a lot of people who are training full body or upper/lower (or whatever) aren't necessarily aiming to be as big as possible. I personally have never gotten huge because I've never wanted to be much heavier than I am now (my goal size has increased over time, but not by much).

but the arguement being made in this thread is for size and strength gains. i mean, why else does someone even train? to look the same? if your arguement with this statment is that people who use UB/LB or FB routines have a goal of no improvments.....then i'd have to agree with you, they're doing the right kind of training :wutyousay:

i'm being a smartass, but i guess your saying the only use of FB, LB, and UB training is strength gains?

Another point; splits people love to argue about how to allocate exercises. For example, what day do deadlifts go on? Back or legs? Because technically they are an exercise that trains just about all of the body. So if you want to get technical you aren't training splits if you do deadlifts. Ditto cleans, etc.

ok mr tim, then could i consider my incline dumbell presses a tricep movement? i mean, it does involve the tricep right?

the deadlift is a back movement. if you use a muscle activity monitor on someone doing one, you'll note heavy involvement in the back, secondary legs. not to mention no one ever gets sore legs off of deads, i don't know about you but my back gets mighty sore the day after deadlifts.

and it is still split training, your just hitting some muscle groups like triceps once a week directly, and once a week indirectly. split training doesn't mean always hitting a muscle group once a week fyi

I am also not a fan of using illegal substances.

um......good for you?

sorry, don't see the point of this comment. legility has nothing to do with it.

 

[curtisymoo]

sam byrd.... insane bastard squats 5x+ bw

 

[tim290280]

Thanks for ignoring all the points made and addressing minuta and hyperbole.

no, it's not. and neither is using all my peers who do, and don't juice, but have very respectable if not what i would call big physiques, using split training.

Yes it is moot to use steroid users as an example of best practice. You have raised both the anabolic threshold and recovery ability. You can train harder and recover better and see more lean gains than a natural trainee. Under normal circumstances a person (beyond newbie) can gain a few pounds of lean muscle in the year. So limititations on recovery by overextending or offering less training frequency will lead to no significant gains in a year.

and really, that last sentence is very ignorant and disrespectful to the bber who uses steroids. just to inform you, that is not true. you can't just take steroids and get big, it's only part of the equation, not the solution. this statement was clearly made by a non user with quite a misconception on their use.

It was hyperbole :methman: I used it to illustrate that as long as you train hard while using then you only have to add food. The actual type of training barely matters in these circumstances as you don't have to be as efficient in your recovery management.

but the arguement being made in this thread is for size and strength gains. i mean, why else does someone even train? to look the same? if your arguement with this statment is that people who use UB/LB or FB routines have a goal of no improvments.....then i'd have to agree with you, they're doing the right kind of training :wutyousay:

Like I said natural trainees don't have huge amounts of gains to tap into. They aren't going to be trying to get huge quickly. Also my original point was that a lot of people use FB and U/L who aren't BBers trying to get huge. There are also a lot of people who use FB and U/L as part of sports training, etc so they are more concerned with other things. As such comparing them with people who's only goal is to get hooouge is erronous.

i'm being a smartass, but i guess your saying the only use of FB, LB, and UB training is strength gains?

Like I said; you have ignored the actual point I was making. You are trying to compare a group that isn't necessarily training to be huge with a BBer.

ok mr tim, then could i consider my incline dumbell presses a tricep movement? i mean, it does involve the tricep right?

the deadlift is a back movement. if you use a muscle activity monitor on someone doing one, you'll note heavy involvement in the back, secondary legs. not to mention no one ever gets sore legs off of deads, i don't know about you but my back gets mighty sore the day after deadlifts.

and it is still split training, your just hitting some muscle groups like triceps once a week directly, and once a week indirectly. split training doesn't mean always hitting a muscle group once a week fyi



um......good for you?

sorry, don't see the point of this comment. legility has nothing to do with it.

Actually as of the end of this month it will be Dr Tim.

So you are saying that split training trains movements?? So why is it chest, back or leg day? And if you are doing say bench on chest day and close grip on arm day then you could actually say that you aren't split training but are performing a push/pull program of sorts.

Once again my point was that there is really no such thing as a split. Thinking in such a way will actually lead to imbalances due to under training of some parts and overtraining of others (sore shoulders anyone???)

Oh and for the record you are wrong on the deadlifts. What you are noticing is actually the involvement of the limiting muscles in the movement. In a deadlift from the floor the legs are the prime mover and perform the most work (hell you can work that out with simple physics).