Stepmill = death

[Ironslave]

I agree in some respects, and also Ironslave makes some great points. But lets not forget that tim is allowed to have his preference in what he wants in a gym he trains at. His opinion on why he doesn't like gyms or why they are not hardcore enough or not our business. He trains fine at home and likes it, and I do not think tim doubts some of the other "hardcore" people in the gym. Maybe he is tired of the rest of the schmoes out there that I am sure we all are. You don't have to agree with it, just don't jump on him about it ELE

Yep, good points. Seeing guys with 13 inch arms rocking the sleeveless shirts while doing curls in the squat rack which resemble pelvic thrusts is enough to piss anyone off. But I don't have a problem training around the man in his 50's who hasn't exercised since high school, but is starting because his doctor told him to or else he'll get CVD.

When I used to train, I always had an MP3 player on, and just did my own thing.

 

[Duality]

I agree in some respects, and also Ironslave makes some great points. But lets not forget that tim is allowed to have his preference in what he wants in a gym he trains at. His opinion on why he doesn't like gyms or why they are not hardcore enough or not our business. He trains fine at home and likes it, and I do not think tim doubts some of the other "hardcore" people in the gym. Maybe he is tired of the rest of the schmoes out there that I am sure we all are. You don't have to agree with it, just don't jump on him about it ELE

you haven't read another post he made where he scoffs at those who train in gyms and think they're hardcore about their training. like i said that post wasn't purely off of the one post tim has made in here. he's allowed to have his preference on where he wants to train of course, but don't for a second think your ANY better than the guy twice your size training with far heavier weights in a gym.

Originally posted by Ironslave
While I don't have anywhere near the resentment Duality does (lol, silly Duality), I don't see the gym hate either. It's not feasible for a business standpoint to have a gym like this:

i agree with your points. i was more about tim's perceived superiority to those who train in gyms because he trains outdoors with a log and a gallon of milk or whatever xmaskekegay.

 

[tim290280]

Hmmmm no need for the hating as I actually agree with your points guys (well except that smith machines don't suck post).

My bashing on gyms that provide shit equipment at the expense of good equipment is valid. But some gyms do provide both and I completely agree that it then only becomes the individuals that this caters to and use the equipment that are the lame ones.

Now as to the "hardcoreness" for training in a gym. I have made this point in the past to highlight the pathetic mindset some trainees have. Hardcore isn't training in a gym, but don't mistake this for training outside of a gym. Hardcore is training when no-one else is. Hardcore is training harder, not making it easier. Hardcore is training when you don't want to train. Hardcore is training when others don't want you to.

Yes you can be hardcore training in a mom & pop gym, you can be hardcore in a basement somewhere. But just rocking up to a gym and having the heating or airconditioning and the nice shiny new equipment, and the weight plates with handles on them means that you can't claim being hardcore unless you are really training. Being in a climate controlled facility makes lifting a mch more pleasant experience, and most people would give up and go home if he A/C broke. But the hardcore would still be there squatting and wouldn't be preturbed about coming back to train regardless of whether the A/C has been fixed.

See what I'm talking about is the mindset. People are lifting weights to put their body under stress to get better. This may be to get bigger, stronger, both, get fitter, look better, the list goes on. Regardless though, a facility that is conducive to training is great. So since when is handles on a weight plate a good idea? It makes them easier to lift. Since when is a DB with no knurling a good idea? You're meant to be able to hold them with your hands not need straps or gloves. You are putting your body under stress to make it better, not trying to do the bare minimum. You either walk the walk or you don't. You can't be hardcore by doing the bare minimum. Hardcore is doing the most you possibly can, not this loser bullshit of the bare minimum. That means lifting the weight, not tieing yourself to it, that means grabbing the plate and loading it on a bar, not having nice little handles because those plates are big and heavy and you might drop it otherwise.

So while I rail against gyms and this vision of hardcore understand what I am actually saying before going off at me. I'm saying that just because you train in a gym doesn't make you hardcore. In fact if anything it means you are less hardcore. What makes you hardcore is the pushing of the limits, training hard, and doing it regardless of the facilities not because of the facilities. I don't have a percieved superiority because I train outdoors. But I do wonder who would give training a miss first on the 40 degree celcius day when you don't have air-conditioning. People better get over themselves as hardcore when they have all the padding and gizmos. Also I've never claimed to be hardcore myself, as I know my limits and goals.

Now Smith machines. If anyone honestly believes that these things are any good for full range exercises then you need to take a few years of basic physics and biomechanics study. Ditto most machines. I don't care if gym hero X used one. You probably don't hear about gym hero X having his massive shoulder or hip or knee operation at the age of 40. Or they may have been on pain killers half their career and are only a matter of time before the operation has to be done.

 

[Duality]

^ this is a much better post.


duality is satisfied

 

[Ironslave]

Yes you can be hardcore training in a mom & pop gym, you can be hardcore in a basement somewhere. But just rocking up to a gym and having the heating or airconditioning and the nice shiny new equipment, and the weight plates with handles on them means that you can't claim being hardcore unless you are really training. Being in a climate controlled facility makes lifting a mch more pleasant experience, and most people would give up and go home if he A/C broke. But the hardcore would still be there squatting and wouldn't be preturbed about coming back to train regardless of whether the A/C has been fixed.

Tim, think about what you're saying. I know I wouldn't enjoy training if I had to do it in a heatbox sauna without air conditioning. How could I do 20 rep squats if the humidity was so bad I felt like I was going to faint after 2 or 3 reps? Further, not everyone wants to be 'hardcore'. Some people are content maintaining their level of fitness, or want to make small gains, or whatever. Is the olympic lifter who trains in a 'mom and pop' gym because he feels more comfortable and gets a better workout less hardcore than the poser who trains at Westside Barbell because he wants to be around the big boys?

See what I'm talking about is the mindset. People are lifting weights to put their body under stress to get better. This may be to get bigger, stronger, both, get fitter, look better, the list goes on. Regardless though, a facility that is conducive to training is great. So since when is handles on a weight plate a good idea? It makes them easier to lift. Since when is a DB with no knurling a good idea? You're meant to be able to hold them with your hands not need straps or gloves. You are putting your body under stress to make it better, not trying to do the bare minimum. You either walk the walk or you don't. You can't be hardcore by doing the bare minimum. Hardcore is doing the most you possibly can, not this loser bullshit of the bare minimum. That means lifting the weight, not tieing yourself to it, that means grabbing the plate and loading it on a bar, not having nice little handles because those plates are big and heavy and you might drop it otherwise.

I think you're going well off course. I see your point about the handle plates, but until you mentioned those I'd never even heard of them, never mind seen them at a gym. What is wrong with using gloves and straps? Personally, I totally understand the person who wears gloves because they don't want their hands calloused, or because it's an unnecessary uncomfort doing rows, shrugs, or whatever.

Come on man, is this guy not hardcore because he's using straps?

So while I rail against gyms and this vision of hardcore understand what I am actually saying before going off at me. I'm saying that just because you train in a gym doesn't make you hardcore. In fact if anything it means you are less hardcore. What makes you hardcore is the pushing of the limits, training hard, and doing it regardless of the facilities not because of the facilities. I don't have a percieved superiority because I train outdoors. But I do wonder who would give training a miss first on the 40 degree celcius day when you don't have air-conditioning. People better get over themselves as hardcore when they have all the padding and gizmos. Also I've never claimed to be hardcore myself, as I know my limits and goals.

Still not sure where you're going with all this. Is the powerlifter who trains in a well equiped gym less hardcore than the soccer dad who does bench press and curls twice a week in his garage using the old weider equipment?

Now Smith machines. If anyone honestly believes that these things are any good for full range exercises then you need to take a few years of basic physics and biomechanics study. Ditto most machines. I don't care if gym hero X used one. You probably don't hear about gym hero X having his massive shoulder or hip or knee operation at the age of 40. Or they may have been on pain killers half their career and are only a matter of time before the operation has to be done.

You're being way too absolute with this, and the rest of the thread bud. I completely agree about squatting on a Smith machine, there's way too much evidence of knee and back injury. Yet, I don't have a problem with using it for bench and shoulder presses, I haven't seen any papers yet which would convince me that they're overly harmful.

 

[tim290280]

IS it's not about the examples per se but rather the context. I'm not talking in absolutes here either, rather trying to elucidate the mindset and perceptions that people have.

Using the example of the hot day. Training outside on a hot day is really tough. I actually think that sometimes it is best to give the training a miss or do something less demanding than (say) squats as you will just wipe yourself out for days after. But a lot of people have it pretty cosy and will quit at the first sign of adversity. So the it isn't the hot day, it's the cold day, it's the humid day, it's the day when I didn't bring my lucky towel, it's the day when my training partner didn't show up.................

For straps; yes they have a place and can be a great tool. But there is a difference between a tool and a crutch. Plus just because you use them doesn't make you a better lifter than someone else, nor does not using them make one better than the other. Rather it is about how and when they are used; crutch or tool. Oh and the vid of Ronnie: I have nothing but respect for his training. I think he uses the straps properly (leading into the Olympia his grip strength would have dropped off under the diet, and normally he's using them on the heavy worksets).

So it's about the people who think that they are tough or hardcore when really they just aren't. Training in a basement isn't hardcore just because it is a basement. Training hard and pushing your limits is the part that makes it hardcore. It's why I find those AnimalPak ads and articles laughable. They are selling a lifestyle that is supposedly hardcore yet it is a marketing gimmick to appeal kids who want to be tough. Nothing hardcore about that.

I hope that makes sense (I'm hungover), as it is a fuzzy grey area that I'm talking about. This is all about context and understanding the difference between the guy who puts on a weight belt to lift and the guy who puts it on because he's on his max set.

And yes I think the smith sucks for bench too. Short ROM movements like it was designed for, like lockouts, or movements that are straight line are fine. But as soon as your line of force is acting at an angle to the line of movement of the bar you are placing shear force on your body. I haven't seen any studies on this. I do agree that for the ROM of a bench the forces may not matter as the angles and forces involved would not be outside of those experienced doing other activities. But we are talking about a machine that also counter balances the bar, takes all the supporting muscles and coordination out of the movement, and is generally abused by trainees. So adding all these things up it still sucks. Plus people want to try and compare weights lifted on a smith with freeweights.

 

[theweapon]

i dont see a problem using a smith for benching(i dont like using it for squats), i cant do 2 reps on a regular flat bench anymore cause of my shoulders.

so im a poser cause im concerned about getting injured?

another thing, ive read around that tim trains for strongman or w.e im not sure. so smith machine are pretty pointless if your trying to get stronger. i train for bodybuilding i dont care about getting stronger i care about building solid muscle and not getting hurt. what good does it do if you benched 300 pounds on a flat bench but fucked up your shoulder and you have to take 3 months out of the gym.

for me i dont see a problem with the smith. infact im glad it exist because how else would i be able to build my chest with bad shoulders.

 

[tim290280]

^^ You are aware that strength and size are related?! You are aware that your body isn't a bunch of parts it is a whole unit?!

Also I don't train for strongman.

And another thing. I don't care if anyone uses a smith machine. Hell people could beat themselves with a stick to make muscles grow. Just don't go telling me it's a good idea.

 

[Ironslave]

Fair post Tim, it just seems like you come across in too absolutes about straps, machines and what not, that's all.

I think we'd all agree that there's no need to use straps on a bicep curl, or wear a weight vest while bench pressing, no need for that. But regardless though, I just chuckle as those who do and go on about my business.

I still don't see the problem with using a smith machine for a bench or shoulder press. Maybe using it exclusively you could get some problems, but I think you'd be hard to find a biomechanist who'd advocate deadlifting 500lbs as 'healthy' for the back, yet shoulder pressing on a smith machine is 'unhealthy'.

 

[philosopher]

Like always there are two sides. One is totally against the other side uses it as a religion. Mostly the truth is in the middle. Yes you can use smith machines but dont neglect free squats, BP, Shoulder presses etc.

 

[Braaq]

I only used the smith machine for partials and occasionally lunges. :wutyousay: Other than that I do not like it much either.

 

[tim290280]

Yeh I think the reason my posts come across as absolutes is that old adage of "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile". Basically offer any support for things that are of limited or occassional benefit and people will think that means use them all the time.

Like my hate for DB flys. It's not like I don't do cable flys on occassion, but it really isn't that regular an occurrance.

Anyway the reason I like running hills more is that I prefer cardio outdoors against a real surface. Treadmills, steppers and the like have an amount of give and movement so they don't help with my knee recovery and movement patterns.

 

[theweapon]

^^ You are aware that strength and size are related?! You are aware that your body isn't a bunch of parts it is a whole unit?!QUOTE]

i dont agree with that, there are people whop are tiny as shit with no muscles and are naturally strong others look real good and they dont lift much. so thats not true.

 

[tim290280]

i dont agree with that, there are people whop are tiny as shit with no muscles and are naturally strong others look real good and they dont lift much. so thats not true.

Oh shoot me now.

 

[theweapon]

Oh shoot me now.

ive noticed that when you realize your wrong, you just say something stupid to insult the other person.

Bodybulding has nothing to do with strength, its obvious as you progress you get stronger, but thats not the objective.

 

[Braaq]

ive noticed that when you realize your wrong, you just say something stupid to insult the other person.

Bodybulding has nothing to do with strength, its obvious as you progress you get stronger, but thats not the objective.

Frank it is apparent you do not know anything of muscle biology or hypertrophy for that matter.

Muscles that get big fast (like some steriod users) but are not strong is because a lack of myonuclei for the given area. Each myonuclei "controls" its own "area" in the muscle cell. This would be easier if I had a board to show you and draw, so you get this new muscle that cannot be controlled effectively and hence is not that strong. Not a good explanation but like I said if I were in front of you with a board I could explain better.
Also, muscles grow due to a stimulus applied. That stimulus would be resistance, as it adapts (or hypertrophys) it requires a larger stimulus = more weight.

These are just two very brief and not detailed explanations... but it gets much, much more in depth and I have not the time.
Lets just say Tim is not wrong, so I would not even begin to go there.

 

[theweapon]

then why are some people super small and dont look like they lift weights but are strong as shit? some poeple are made for strength bro, all depends what you train for and your genetics.

 

[Ironslave]

then why are some people super small and dont look like they lift weights but are strong as shit? some poeple are made for strength bro, all depends what you train for and your genetics.

Weapon.... you're being too absolute. Some people are biomechanically and neurologically able to lift a ton of weight at a 'small' size....

.... empirically, look at all the big guys (who aren't on kg's of steroids)... how many of them are bench pressing 185 for a set of 10 reps on their work sets?

 

[theweapon]

Weapon.... you're being too absolute. Some people are biomechanically and neurologically able to lift a ton of weight at a 'small' size....

.... empirically, look at all the big guys (who aren't on kg's of steroids)... how many of them are bench pressing 185 for a set of 10 reps on their work sets?

doesnt that prove my point tho?

 

[Ironslave]

doesnt that prove my point tho?

...everything here is getting taken in absolutes, bad e-communication all around