The end of the world!!!!

[alex]

BigBen, I still don't get how you can call your god flawless. A God that lets INNOCENT children starve to dead, tsunamis killing infi people.....

How can something flawless allow innocents to suffer through this (and those examples have nothing to do with interfering with free will of others)

god damn you jornt you stole what i wanted to say...
It makes you wonder how can they call him god of compassion while at the same time he does nothing for all the children that dont have a chance for a decent living.Thats sadistic not compassionate.its not a flawless mind its a sic mind.

 

[Rocky]

Perhaps it's a preventative measure - those kids were gonna grow up and do horrible things and he was simply nipping it in the bud...

 

[jornT]

That would be in direct contrast with the free will he claims to have given.

Futhermore, he missed alot of bad/evil people then.....not flawless after all?

 

[BigBen]

God is completely good. God does not do the harm. Those harmful things are, exspecially the one about poeple starving in Africa, a result of selfishness. Those that have could certainly help those that do not have. Suffering has definate value. If your offer your suffering up to God, God will offer you comfort. I wouldnt want to say that God makes those things happen bc again God is all good. Their is no evil about God, Satan is evil and satan causes suffering to cause confusion and disbelief.

 

[Ironslave]

God is completely good. God does not do the harm. Those harmful things are, exspecially the one about poeple starving in Africa, a result of selfishness. Those that have could certainly help those that do not have. Suffering has definate value. If your offer your suffering up to God, God will offer you comfort. I wouldnt want to say that God makes those things happen bc again God is all good. Their is no evil about God, Satan is evil and satan causes suffering to cause confusion and disbelief.

Ben, to start you know how much I respect you and your faith (Serb takes things WAY too far). But you can't think that bad things that happen are a result of selfishness. I've done all I can for people in my life, did god give my father and mother cancer? Or was that because I or they were selfish in some regard (my mother spent time in a coma and nearly died trying to give birth to me, thats as unselfish as it gets).

How about instances in the bible where god orders killing? (as I've pointed out many times in the thread).

 

[jornT]

God is completely good. God does not do the harm. Those harmful things are, exspecially the one about poeple starving in Africa, a result of selfishness. Those that have could certainly help those that do not have. Suffering has definate value. If your offer your suffering up to God, God will offer you comfort. I wouldnt want to say that God makes those things happen bc again God is all good. Their is no evil about God, Satan is evil and satan causes suffering to cause confusion and disbelief.

Oh brother :rolleyes

You GOT to be fucking kidding me. Don't you see what you're religion consist of?

- Contradictions in the bible --> translators fault
(makes me wonder, why would God want people to translate the Bible wrong in the first place)

- Innocents suffering --> fault of others people which have free will
(BTW, as a dietetician, you should know, that we currently do NOT have enough food in the world to feed every mount enough to give them a health lifestyle, and it's unlikely that food production catches up since it's only seems to be losing the battle, simply not enough resources in the world, no matter if people want to help or not)

- We cannot prove he doesn't exist --> human logic sucks, god's allmighty though
(why does'n't he prove he exsist, or atleast reveals himself, than people could still choose for themself to accept him)

Ok, another example: person X and Y are perfect christians, they get a child, with birth defection and it goes through life suffering insane pain. Why does God allows such a thing? Parents did everything they could to be good, child is innocent by definition because he's born this way, and no others to point the finger to this time.

 

[SerbMarko]

# Why is there evil and suffering in the world?

1. The question implies that if a good God exists, then evil shouldn't because God, being all powerful, should stop it.
2. We need to ask and answer two questions. First, what is evil? It is that which is against God. It is anything morally bad or wrong. It is injurious, depraved, wicked. Some acceptable examples might be murder, rape, stealing, lying, and cheating. Second, if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop all evil, or just some of it? In other words, if just some of it, then why? If He were to stop only part of the evil, then we would still be asking the question, "Why is there evil in the world?"
Let's suppose that someone was about to commit murder. God would have to stop him, maybe whisper in his ear, or if that didn't work, do something a little more drastic, like have something fall on him, or stop his heart, or make his hands suddenly fall off. Anyway, God would have to do something.
What if somebody wanted to steal? God would have to stop him too, right? Undoubtedly, God's imagination would permit a more practical method than I have suggested, but the end results would be the same.
What about lying? If someone were to tell a lie, then to be consistent wouldn't you want God right there to stop that person from lying? After all, He couldn't let any evil occur, could He?
Let's take it a step further. Suppose someone thought something evil. Then, of course, God would have to step in and prevent him from thinking anything bad at all, right? The end result would be that God could not allow anyone to think freely. Since everyone thinks, and no one thinks only pure thoughts, God would be pretty busy, and we wouldn't be able to think. Anyway, at what point do we stop - at the murder level, stealing level, lying level, or thinking level? As your question implies, if you want God to stop evil, you would have to be consistent and want Him to do it everywhere all the time, not just pick and choose. It wouldn't work.
Evil is in this world partly because we give it its place but ultimately because God, in His sovereignty, permits it and keeps it under His control.
Then you might say, "Couldn't He just make us perfect and that way we wouldn't sin?" He already did that. He made a perfect angel, Satan, but he sinned. He made a perfect man, Adam, and he sinned. He made a perfect woman, Eve, and she sinned. God knows what He is doing. He made us the way we are for a purpose. We don't fully understand that purpose, but He does.
3. God is sovereign; He has the right to do as He wishes. He has the right to permit evil for accomplishing His ultimate will. How can He do that? Simple, look at the Cross. It was by evil means that men lied and crucified Jesus. Yet God in His infinite wisdom used this evil for good. It was on the Cross that Jesus bore our sins in His body (1 Peter. 2:24) and it is because of the Cross that we have forgiveness of sins.
4. Consider the biblical example of Joseph in the Old Testament. He was sold into slavery by his brothers. Though they meant it for evil, God meant it for good (Gen. 50:20). God is so great that nothing happens without His permission, and in that permission His ultimate plan unfolds. In His plan He is able to use for good what man intends for evil. God is in control.

 

[Ironslave]

Evil is in this world partly because we give it its place but ultimately because God, in His sovereignty, permits it and keeps it under His control.

Lets say I go hang out with Flex at the Arnold Classic, and Flex decides that he and the rest of the Cosa Nostra he is with decide that they want to kill Paulie and steal his coca-cola t-shirt. If I know about it, and I let it happen, I am legally by law guilty of the crime by association. I let this happen.

Then you might say, "Couldn't He just make us perfect and that way we wouldn't sin?" He already did that. He made a perfect angel, Satan, but he sinned. He made a perfect man, Adam, and he sinned. He made a perfect woman, Eve, and she sinned. God knows what He is doing. He made us the way we are for a purpose. We don't fully understand that purpose, but He does.

If they sinned, they were not perfect. Why didnt god make them so they wouldn't sin? Does this mean god was a fuck up?

Or, did god give them free will? You already said in this thread he doesn't give people free will, so that means that god destined them to be sinners?

Serb, you havent even attempted to explain the numerous contradictions in the bible I've posted. Yet, you continue to regurgitate it. This is horrible debating. You keep using the same flawed source which is full of contradictions, and bullshit.

 

[Line]

As someone who is religious I've been asked here though I'm not sure who will agree or disagree with me. Frankly, I don't care.

It's a shame that radicals from both sides seem to be ruining what can be a healthy balance between "church and state" which, by the way, is a term that is overused and I did not mean it in any literal sense. The problem seems to dwell from this overly fatalistic mindset that everything happens for a reason or that divine intervention is something real and almost commonplace. Too often we boil controversy and conflict in our lives down to figurative tests of fortitude or part of a higher purpose when in fact things just happen sometimes. Free will is one of the most basic and fundamental teachings of both the religious and the non but both sides misinterpret it their own way and, more often than not, incorrectly. The over zealous seem to think that said trait is only human and is our main combatant in an overwhelming battle of good versus evil where we must choose what is right for the sake of the greater good. Those who are radically opposed tend to overanalyze aspects of life and begin thinking in terms of breaking or strengthening determinism, which, while very different from organized religion still has similar flaws to it. I've never been one to push my faith on others but do believe that the religious can be logical and the logical can be religious and I'm more likely to damn those who are illogical before those who aren't religious. I'm not sure why God would save the stupid anymore than he would save the ignorant.


EDIT: I will not respond to any copy/paste answers, as I could care less about them. In said case I refer you to my avatar.

 

[Flex]

Lets say I go hang out with Flex at the Arnold Classic, and Flex decides that he and the rest of the Cosa Nostra he is with decide that they want to kill Paulie and steal his coca-cola t-shirt.

So are you in or out Ironslave?

 

[Ironslave]

So are you in or out Ironslave?

I would love to be an accessory to the fact, but it's not meant to be this year.

I think the only radical person from either side we've seen here thus far has been Serb though, other than that, its been a good discussion.

 

[Flex]

I would love to be an accessory to the fact, but it's not meant to be this year.

I think the only radical person from either side we've seen here thus far has been Serb though, other than that, its been a good discussion.

Me and Serb started going at it in the chatbox earlier.

Most frustrating conversation of my life.

 

[Glex]

I've never been one to push my faith on others but do believe that the religious can be logical and the logical can be religious and I'm more likely to damn those who are illogical before those who aren't religious. I'm not sure why God would save the stupid anymore than he would save the ignorant.

Well said.

 

[BigBen]

Ben, to start you know how much I respect you and your faith (Serb takes things WAY too far). But you can't think that bad things that happen are a result of selfishness. I've done all I can for people in my life, did god give my father and mother cancer? Or was that because I or they were selfish in some regard (my mother spent time in a coma and nearly died trying to give birth to me, thats as unselfish as it gets).

How about instances in the bible where god orders killing? (as I've pointed out many times in the thread).

IS, i dont think ALL things that happen are a result of selfishness no, but theirs no doubt that a lot of problems could be solved or helped if their were more generous people in the world.

I won't comment on your parents other than to say i am sorry you lost them. It would be extremely disrespectful towards you to try reasoning that and it would outright egotistical and rude for me to even act like i know why things like that hapen bc i dont.

As far as God ordering killing you have to realize that different covenants and laws were being applied at different times, God would not openly and blatently contradictHimself, if you believe God contradicts Himself then you have misenterprted the Bible incorrectly, either to satisfy your ideas or by mistake bc of lack of knowledge on the subject. No disrespect.

Oh brother :rolleyes

You GOT to be fucking kidding me. Don't you see what you're religion consist of?

- Contradictions in the bible --> translators fault
(makes me wonder, why would God want people to translate the Bible wrong in the first place)

- Innocents suffering --> fault of others people which have free will
(BTW, as a dietetician, you should know, that we currently do NOT have enough food in the world to feed every mount enough to give them a health lifestyle, and it's unlikely that food production catches up since it's only seems to be losing the battle, simply not enough resources in the world, no matter if people want to help or not)

- We cannot prove he doesn't exist --> human logic sucks, god's allmighty though
(why does'n't he prove he exsist, or atleast reveals himself, than people could still choose for themself to accept him)

Ok, another example: person X and Y are perfect christians, they get a child, with birth defection and it goes through life suffering insane pain. Why does God allows such a thing? Parents did everything they could to be good, child is innocent by definition because he's born this way, and no others to point the finger to this time.

The bible does not contradict itself, to say so shows you have passed judgement before researching the matter for yourself with an understanding of it, which you cant have just by reading your posts.

God does reveal himself to those who have faith everyday. Even if u believe in the big bang, you have to admit that something was a prime mover in all of that. Even darwin acknowledges a "creator" Life is completely to sophisticated to have happened by chance, to not believe in God takes more faith than to believe in God. The head of the human genome project in america converted to Christainity DURING the project! Scientists who are truley understand that what they(science) know is such a small insignificant fraction of what is really out their that the unkown seems to be infinate even believe that their is a creator.

Jorn your hypothetical situation at the end of your post is incorrect on so many levels its unreal. Their is no such thing as a perfect Christian, we all have faults. The only perfect erson was Jesus. Even if this was the case GOD DOES NOT PUNISH YOU ON THIS EARTH. our actions reard or punish thmselves by the initial splash if u will and the remaining waves of reaction by others. If you wanted to blame something like that on anything you might blame it on the laws of nature, but even that would be a streach bc most likely f these people were perfect which wouldnt be the case bc mans nature is to sin, then they would not think that stuation you presented was a bad one. The child is not innocent we are bron with original sin which is besides the point! GOD DOES NOT PUNISH US ON THIS EARTH! U have a vision of God in your mind that is like a kid with a magnifying glass over an ant hill, you are wrong and misinformed.


IRONSLAVE, i came across the author of this book on TV doing an interview and in the interview he was anwsering questions in a very wise way that i think you would appreciate.

Amazon.com

God Bless
Ben