MuscleMecca Natural Ability Debate

[Ironslave]

your thoughts.....

i think you're a twat.

 

[Tonyk212000]

lol

 

[Duality]

i think you're a twat.

hey good response there! glad to see you haven't changed!

 

[tim290280]

I see you as being wrong on both counts. You have come into Max's log and insulted him when in the same breath you display complete ignorance of the subject matter. So don't be surprised when someone calls you on it, because it was more than fair to call your original statement either stupid or ignorant.

Next point would be to say that Ironslave is the physiologist here, I've done a bit of reading of the science, Tunen is also bemused at your statement, so I think it is fair to say that you are the one that needs to go away and cure your ignorance not us.

You cannot argue with the facts, you were factually incorrect, there is no difference of opinion.

if his 40 time was already sub 5 seconds than yes. but what about a guy who runs a 5.25? i don't care what you do, that guys never going to be one of the fastest guys on any court.

your thoughts.....

Give me a guy who is willing to work hard, train smart over someone with "talent". I've seen guys make national teams who were nothing more than average, but they worked damn hard and got the right coaching. I've seen guys who had the natural talent that went nowhere.

For some reason you are stuck in the extremes. Are you honsetly saying that someone shouldn't try and make the best of themselves, because anyone who is willing to work hard and smart will go a lot further than they could have ever dreamt. Plus you should go and read some of the papers on muscle fibre type conversions and growth, you'll be surprised at just how adaptable the body is. The standout athletes are the guys that had talent and still worked hard, but the rest of the thousands of pro athletes range from talented to ordinary and they have busted their guts to get there.

Now as for your original statement: I have never ever heard of an athlete that runs a world class time without training (sacrifice, coaching, hard work,.......). I have never ever heard of an athlete that has made it past state level without a lot of hard work. So if speed can't be trained then why do these guys bother? Why don't the genetic freaks just rock up and win a medal? Or does that just not fit with your little opinion so you are ignoring it?!

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280
Are you honsetly saying that someone shouldn't try and make the best of themselves, because anyone who is willing to work hard and smart will go a lot further than they could have ever dreamt.

not at all. i find it quite admirable when someone who is less than genetically gifted manages to do well in sports through their own dedication and work. if this is the impression you got from my posts it was unintended.

The standout athletes are the guys that had talent and still worked hard, but the rest of the thousands of pro athletes range from talented to ordinary and they have busted their guts to get there.

and i again agree. but there has to be some potetial there for athleticism already. my main issue here is that it seems you guys think anyone, as long as they work hard, can be a good to great athlete. now some can yes, but there must be some genetic potential there to begin with.

Now as for your original statement: I have never ever heard of an athlete that runs a world class time without training (sacrifice, coaching, hard work,.......). I have never ever heard of an athlete that has made it past state level without a lot of hard work.

neither have I. i'm not saying just because you're genetically gifted can you just waltz over any and all competition. not at all. i'm sure from justin gaitiln to micheal jordan to jerry rice to tom brady, they all must put in the work to enhance their God given talent.

So if speed can't be trained then why do these guys bother? Why don't the genetic freaks just rock up and win a medal? Or does that just not fit with your little opinion so you are ignoring it?!

speed can't be taught at a world class level. only perfected and enhanced through technique and training. those men are genetic specimens to behold and would be far faster and physically superior to the average man if they never even trained as they do. but through their training do they become the best. they enhance their natural abilities through rigourous practice that must be done if they want to be the best of the best, but it would be only wasted effort if they didn't have the genetic potential to begin with. that is what i meant when i said you can't teach speed.

 

[Rageking]

/hijacking the thread, back on topic

max good to see you found something you love doing. when i was a freshman in high school i thought i loved bball more than anything and wanted to try out for the team, but practicing everyday for hours just got to me and made the game stale. playing for rec leagues for fun is always good, and pick up games. it never goes away, but it is good to focus on what you love doing.

nice sessions too, always got to watch the hammies!

 

[Tunen]

How was it necessary? :wutyousay:

dunno :wutyousay: I didn't remove your post

 

[tim290280]

speed can't be taught at a world class level.

1) Since when was anyone on this board a world class athlete?
2) Why do so many gifted athletes manage to achieve nothing?
3) Why do so many coaches do speed drills?
4) Why do athletes measure progress in personal bests (because they can't be getting better from that training can they)?
5) If someone can improve through training then isn't that being taught and trained to be better?

Seriously I'd like to open the bag on this one but you don't even seem to grasp the basic argument for me (or I suspect Ironslave) to go down the science path.

 

[Duality]

tim come the hell on my very next sentence and the rest of that paragraph elaborated on that point. way to take one sentence out of context in an attempt to strengthen your arguement. why don't you address that entire paragraph not one little excerpt and tell me you think what i said isn't reasonably true.

 

[Ironslave]

speed can't be taught at a world class level. only perfected and enhanced through technique and training. those men are genetic specimens to behold and would be far faster and physically superior to the average man if they never even trained as they do. but through their training do they become the best. they enhance their natural abilities through rigourous practice that must be done if they want to be the best of the best, but it would be only wasted effort if they didn't have the genetic potential to begin with. that is what i meant when i said you can't teach speed.

Nobody is arguing that the average Joe on the street could be an Olympic sprinter. However, one with that potential must still be TAUGHT how to use the correct technique, he must train to improve his speed, and he must spend years if not decades doing this.

A world class athlete with genetic potential (lets call them person A) may be trained to run the 100M in 13 seconds, to running it in 10 seconds. Max (call him person B) may run it in 15 seconds, but be taught to run it in 12. Either way, both are being taught. Now, let's imagine that person A is lazy and has no work ethic whatsoever, thus, his 100m run time stays at 13 seconds. Max, on the other hand, could spent years training and working on technique, strength etc, and he runs it in 12 seconds. Which one has more speed? The one who was born with genetic potential to be fast, or the one who wasn't, yet just ran the faster time?

Especially in the context of a recreational basketball league in Iceland that Max plays in, your argument of

and speed can't be taught or earned, you either have it or you don't

is just ridiculous


ps I was drunk last night when I called you a twat

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Ironslave
Nobody is arguing that the average Joe on the street could be an Olympic sprinter. However, one with that potential must still be TAUGHT how to use the correct technique, he must train to improve his speed, and he must spend years if not decades doing this.

isn't that exactly what i just said? :wutyousay:

A world class athlete with genetic potential (lets call them person A) may be trained to run the 100M in 13 seconds, to running it in 10 seconds. Max (call him person B) may run it in 15 seconds, but be taught to run it in 12. Either way, both are being taught. Now, let's imagine that person A is lazy and has no work ethic whatsoever, thus, his 100m run time stays at 13 seconds. Max, on the other hand, could spent years training and working on technique, strength etc, and he runs it in 12 seconds. Which one has more speed? The one who was born with genetic potential to be fast, or the one who wasn't, yet just ran the faster time?

i think you've cleared the air on exactly what you meant because i agree with everything in this post. the vibe i got from your other ones was that a completely flat footed naturally unathletic guy could become one of the best jocks around if he just tried hard, which i completely disagree with. but i don't think that's what you meant.

 

[tim290280]

Fine I'll bite. I did actually address all of your points, I just highlighted one section.
This will be my last post on this as you are clearly unwilling to actually do any further reading to fully grasp what you don't understand.

speed can't be taught at a world class level. only perfected and enhanced through technique and training. those men are genetic specimens to behold and would be far faster and physically superior to the average man if they never even trained as they do. but through their training do they become the best. they enhance their natural abilities through rigourous practice that must be done if they want to be the best of the best, but it would be only wasted effort if they didn't have the genetic potential to begin with. that is what i meant when i said you can't teach speed.

1) Since when was anyone on this board a world class athlete?
2) Why do so many gifted athletes manage to achieve nothing?
3) Why do so many coaches do speed drills?
4) Why do athletes measure progress in personal bests (because they can't be getting better from that training can they)?
5) If someone can improve through training then isn't that being taught and trained to be better?

Seriously I'd like to open the bag on this one but you don't even seem to grasp the basic argument for me (or I suspect Ironslave) to go down the science path

All living things have what is termed a GxE interaction (genetics times environment). They essentially are a make up of 50% environment and 50% genetics, thus the environment plays just as big a part in development of the individual as the genetics does. This role is often the reason for expression of "turned off" factors coming to the fore and leading to genetic divergence. So what we see is that in this case an athlete would have to be born and raised to be an athlete, have the right training, right coaching, right attitude, right diet, right competition, right mindset, and the right support to become an athlete. The genetics factor determines whether they have it come a bit more naturally to them. But an athlete with more average genes that works hard can make up that shortfall significantly as the difference between "gifted" and average maybe only the difference between better coaching or diet.

As I previously alluded get good genetics and good environment and you have a very good athlete...... barring injury, sickness, poverty, mental/family/social issues, politics, or even social status. Lets face it, most will gifted athletes don't go beyond a certain point as it takes hard work and life will offer other alternatives (jobs, wives, etc). "Refining" is an interesting choice of words as that is semantics and trying desperately not concede the point. Speed has to be "taught" and trained in order to actually use it.

Someone with better fibre types in the right places has to be taught to develop those fibres, they have to be taught to recruit them efficiently, they have to train hard!!! Let alone the fact that fibre ratios aren't static in the body and have been shown to convert based on training (although massive shifts in ratios just won't happen). SO WHAT PART OF THIS IS NOT TEACHING/TRAINING PEOPLE HOW TO BE FASTER?

 

[Braaq]

tim, IS.. if you can go without insulting Duality he will do the same. I do not see the point in showing your intelligence by talking down to others regardless if you think he comes off as ignorant or cocky, if you truly are as intelligent as you are then you would think to be the better man and not rouse him up that way. Unless you get your jollies by touting your intelligence by talking down to others, you could make the same posts and reword them and come off like such a better person.
I may be a little drunk atm, but if anyone talked to me that way in person I would beat their face in a split second no problem to teach them a lesson of respect. Just my two cents

 

[tim290280]

^^ So him originally insulting Max is ok then Senior members protecting said same is not on? The reason I am not going to post anymore on this is that I find Duality and his attitude both derrogatory and insulting (the irony of this post is not lost on me).

Also if I'm coming off as talking down it is because I have factual knowledge from studies and understanding in science that is being argued with by someone who clearly lacks this. I can't speak for IS but I'm sure he shares a similar frustration.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280
All living things have what is termed a GxE interaction (genetics times environment). They essentially are a make up of 50% environment and 50% genetics, thus the environment plays just as big a part in development of the individual as the genetics does.

that is absolutely positively simply not true. justin gaitlin as a child ran around his block jumping fire hydrants and trying to chase down cars as a young kid, are you telling me that this "training" he did throughout his early years played just as much a role as his elite genes in once making him the fastest man on earth? allen iverson grew up with absolutely nothing and his mother could barely afford him shoes to play in and all he did was play pick up games in a local park before his mom could afford to put him on an AAU team. or was that local park he played at just a breeding ground for NBA talent with proper training facilities? lebron james grew up in one of the most poverty stricken areas in cleveland and only when he started to get noticed through his natural abilities was he able to afford the proper "environment" conducive to an elite level athlete, but he would never be there had it not been for his raw ability. the list goes on, and on, and on. i mean shit half of the NBA is from some of the poorest areas in America, you want to know what got them there? there God given talent. period. it is simply ridiculous that you think such a disadvantageous surrounding is 50% of what got them where they are. i mean you even mention in your next paragraph that poverty is an element that would hold back an athlete from reaching their potential. your thinking purely with numbers and studies and not using any common sense making a statement like that. seriously, think that statement through again and don't think scientifically, use your head.

i sincerely want to hear your rebuttal to this paragraph. i am in shock that someone as educated as yourself would make a statement like this and accept it as fact.

The genetics factor determines whether they have it come a bit more naturally to them. But an athlete with more average genes that works hard can make up that shortfall significantly as the difference between "gifted" and average maybe only the difference between better coaching or diet.

my goodness do you have NO respect for genetic superiority.

listen i have never said that someone could not improve on their own abilities through effort and practice. that is quite obvious.

As I previously alluded get good genetics and good environment and you have a very good athlete...... barring injury, sickness, poverty, mental/family/social issues, politics, or even social status. Lets face it, most will gifted athletes don't go beyond a certain point as it takes hard work and life will offer other alternatives (jobs, wives, etc). "Refining" is an interesting choice of words as that is semantics and trying desperately not concede the point. Speed has to be "taught" and trained in order to actually use it.

i've highlighted the things that aren't neccesary to have a good athlete. most of the NFL and NBA are black americans from lower middle class to poor neighborhoods. are you telling me the black community just knows how to train them young? maybe all that poverty and such a healthy environment as the ghetto really helps with their training? No. that fact of the matter is that for the most part, blacks (using them as an example) have superior genetics to the average man when it comes to athletic capability. that is the sole, the only reason why they dominate all sports they enter (as a whole). if you disagree with this you just aren't accepting reality. you will never find a study or be able to attach a number to something to tell you why blacks as a whole are naturally superior to their counterparts athletically. it is genetics. plain and simple.


and again i want to hear your rebuttal to this one as well. i do not say this mockingly. i am truly interested as to how someone would go about refuting this.

Someone with better fibre types in the right places has to be taught to develop those fibres, they have to be taught to recruit them efficiently, they have to train hard!!!

completely agree

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280
So him originally insulting Max is ok then Senior members protecting said same is not on? The reason I am not going to post anymore on this is that I find Duality and his attitude both derrogatory and insulting (the irony of this post is not lost on me).

i'm sorry we're defending max now? that is THE most hypocritical thing i have ever heard on this site. did you not see the thread completely and entirely devoted to insulting Max? i am not kidding in the least bit. why don't you go see the thread that is "rocky's training master class" and get back to me. why don't you go to some of max's other threads and read some of the plain and outright mean statements made mocking and insulting him. oh but you found what i said to be especially hianus? your statement is either blindingly ignorant or completely hypocritical.

 

[Chesticles]

*Waits for JornT to show up*

 

[theweapon]

tim, IS.. if you can go without insulting Duality he will do the same. I do not see the point in showing your intelligence by talking down to others regardless if you think he comes off as ignorant or cocky, if you truly are as intelligent as you are then you would think to be the better man and not rouse him up that way. Unless you get your jollies by touting your intelligence by talking down to others, you could make the same posts and reword them and come off like such a better person.
I may be a little drunk atm, but if anyone talked to me that way in person I would beat their face in a split second no problem to teach them a lesson of respect. Just my two cents

dont mean to hi jack this thread,

braaq- dude time for a new shirt!! lol i know youve been training in it for a long time, but cmon man it looks like a spaghetti strap or something
im messing with you dude its 0509 and im outta it BTW in your sig you look huge i wanna see your front DB

 

[tim290280]

that is absolutely positively simply not true. justin gaitlin as a child ran around his block jumping fire hydrants and trying to chase down cars as a young kid, are you telling me that this "training" he did throughout his early years played just as much a role as his elite genes in once making him the fastest man on earth? allen iverson grew up with absolutely nothing and his mother could barely afford him shoes to play in and all he did was play pick up games in a local park before his mom could afford to put him on an AAU team. or was that local park he played at just a breeding ground for NBA talent with proper training facilities? lebron james grew up in one of the most poverty stricken areas in cleveland and only when he started to get noticed through his natural abilities was he able to afford the proper "environment" conducive to an elite level athlete, but he would never be there had it not been for his raw ability. the list goes on, and on, and on. i mean shit half of the NBA is from some of the poorest areas in America, you want to know what got them there? there God given talent. period. it is simply ridiculous that you think such a disadvantageous surrounding is 50% of what got them where they are. i mean you even mention in your next paragraph that poverty is an element that would hold back an athlete from reaching their potential. your thinking purely with numbers and studies and not using any common sense making a statement like that. seriously, think that statement through again and don't think scientifically, use your head.

i sincerely want to hear your rebuttal to this paragraph. i am in shock that someone as educated as yourself would make a statement like this and accept it as fact.

As I previously stated I have no intention of continuing this argument. The fact that you are unaware of the well accepted basis of GxE interaction, a cornerstone of genetics, shows why it is merely wasting my time.

i'm sorry we're defending max now? that is THE most hypocritical thing i have ever heard on this site. did you not see the thread completely and entirely devoted to insulting Max? i am not kidding in the least bit. why don't you go see the thread that is "rocky's training master class" and get back to me. why don't you go to some of max's other threads and read some of the plain and outright mean statements made mocking and insulting him. oh but you found what i said to be especially hianus? your statement is either blindingly ignorant or completely hypocritical.

This was originally in Max's training log. It is his training log where he journals his training. That makes it completely inappropriate to make spurious and insulting statements in order to ridicule him. If you had chosen to do it elsewhere I would have no issue with it as Max's history is well known on this site. Also look at my member number; you think I am unaware of Max's post history, or the rest of the board for that matter?

You seem like a decent guy, I just wish you would stop thinking you know-it-all and start delving into some background science of why guys like IS, Tunen, me are disagreeing with you.

 

[Ironslave]

tim, IS.. if you can go without insulting Duality he will do the same. I do not see the point in showing your intelligence by talking down to others regardless if you think he comes off as ignorant or cocky, if you truly are as intelligent as you are then you would think to be the better man and not rouse him up that way. Unless you get your jollies by touting your intelligence by talking down to others, you could make the same posts and reword them and come off like such a better person.
I may be a little drunk atm, but if anyone talked to me that way in person I would beat their face in a split second no problem to teach them a lesson of respect. Just my two cents

huh? my last post wasn't insulting at all, he just admitted we "cleared the air"