My back!

[dilatedmuscle]

No seriously. You gave the advice, now explain how the hell it works Because I really would like to know how you can target one part of a muscle so that I can become rich. No-one else has managed it yet.

Rent it out for gay for pay, it may not become rich but it will have substantially higher income.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

Sorry, but please explain how you can target one part of a muscle. In this explanation I'd like you to talk about innervation, insertion and origin points and of course biomechanical advantages.

Well i guess i just go by theory. When i needed more width, i do wider grip excercizes and focused on pull-down and pull up exercises. when i needed thickness in my inner and lower back, i focus on row exercises and deadlifts. I cannot explain scientifically how the theory works but I can say that although you muscle contracts all together, different areas of the muscle has different levels of shape during a certain position....

When you do rows, you put your lats in a position where they are making this shape... Which increases the "level of contraction" near your spine.... So in theory, you can do that range of motion to develop that area... you also feel that area more while doing rows than when doing chin ups or pull downs....

Wide grip pulldown/chinup exercises also target the Teres Major which can add width to your back. And as far as your Latissimus Dorsi goes, you can feel the outside of your lats as opposed to the middle of your back during rows...

Again it is just a theory... and i dont think im doing that theory justice... But I personally wouldnt expect my back to get that inner back thickness from only doing pull-up/pulldown exercizes... and i would not expect my lats to get much more widtch from doing row exercizes in which my lats are not being put in a position where they would be stretched out to the maximum of my natural range of motion.

Markus Ruhl beleives in the theory that you cannot improve uppon an individual muscle by using different levels of motion and different ponts of maximum contraction during a variation of a specific exercize.... He always did wide grip chest exercises and he stated that he does not beleive he can build inner chest by having a closer grip. he beleived the muscle will grow uniformly while doing wide grip. Later on he started getting some sort of degeneration in his inner pecs that he could not explain. some beleive that its from doing super wide grip chest exercizes and never doing anything with a remotely closer grip...

Sometimes you have to be organic and go with how things feel and where u feel it. I doubt you can feel the most inner part of your chest more while doing wide grip as opposed to close grip.. and it is the same muscle yet you feel it more in different areas

EDIT: you may not even feel the difference if you have poor mind-muscle connection

 

[tim290280]

^^ I believe in Flying Spagetti Monster too.

My point was that you can't hit one part of a muscle. When you have multiple heads or multiple innervation points of a muscle then you can have better/worse recruitment from some exercises.

But the "lats" are one muscle. It has multiple innervation points, but that has little to do with areas:

Most of the difference between back exercises is the relative involvement of the other back muscles. The people with really low lats either have an origin from an extra rib or like Kai they have a short mid section (well actually it looks like he has both). When you see the pic above you understand that most of the lat is far below where we think it is. Most of that "lat spread" is coming from other muscles like the terres major and infraspinatus.

So stop believing. Knowledge is power, ignorance is for the weak.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

So i guess i shouldve said "outer back" instead of "outer lats"... sorry

If thats the case then he should still do pulldowns and chin ups..


So do you beleive your muscle will grow uniformly even though with certain exercises you feel it more in different areas of the specific muscle?

Do u beleive u can build good inner pecs by doing wide grip and not doing closer grip or crossover-like exercises where you bring your elbows closer to the center of your body?

 

[Braaq]

So i guess i shouldve said "outer back" instead of "outer lats"... sorry

If thats the case then he should still do pulldowns and chin ups..


So do you beleive your muscle will grow uniformly even though with certain exercises you feel it more in different areas of the specific muscle?

Do u beleive u can build good inner pecs by doing wide grip and not doing closer grip or crossover-like exercises where you bring your elbows closer to the center of your body?

No, for the EXACT same reason tim just described. You are just describing the sensation of a different ROM of the contraction in comparison to a press and a fly or cross-over (which is really pointless)

Just stop trying to argue this point because tim is right. And don't use the smiley when you are being proven wrong or someone corrects you. It is better to have humility, admit you just learned something and thank the person for the wisdom the just bestowed upon you.

 

[tim290280]

So i guess i shouldve said "outer back" instead of "outer lats"... sorry

They are completely different.

If thats the case then he should still do pulldowns and chin ups..

Lats are involved in rows as well.

So do you beleive your muscle will grow uniformly even though with certain exercises you feel it more in different areas of the specific muscle?

"Feel"??? That is subjective and more due to inflamation or tension than actual "targeting". Also I don't "believe", I go on facts. Have a read of the science article I just posted in the articles section. I was having a look through articles after your post and came across it.

Do u beleive u can build good inner pecs by doing wide grip and not doing closer grip or crossover-like exercises where you bring your elbows closer to the center of your body?

No such thing as an "inner pec" or "outer pec" or whatever. So no. But that is not a matter of belief, that is a matter of evidence based fact.

Even with the above article and various heads, etc, you still can't seperate a muscle fibre into sections. Penation angle may be a factor, but these don't have segmented motor unit control, unlike the fibre groups like the article I posted suggests.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

No, for the EXACT same reason tim just described. You are just describing the sensation of a different ROM of the contraction in comparison to a press and a fly or cross-over (which is really pointless)

Just stop trying to argue this point because tim is right. And don't use the smiley when you are being proven wrong or someone corrects you. It is better to have humility, admit you just learned something and thank the person for the wisdom the just bestowed upon you.

There is different sensation with different ROM and the ROM can be different and/or limitted depending on the exercize. For example, you can row your arm into your body when you are doing dumbell rows feeling the most inner part of your latissimus (from a superficial standpoint) as opposed to doing barbell rows. Some people still beleive that closer grips will help with innerpec seperation and/or development as opposed to simply using wide grip...I know there is no seperate head or muscle group for the more centered area of your chest. I mentioned before Markus Ruhl didnt beleive that, and some have speculated that the inner pec degeneration and/or tearing away from the sternum may have been from all the wide grip and no closer grip exercises which, as you said, would had a completely different sensation and range of motion... He sure as hell couldnt figure out why it happened and neither could his doctors.

If you get two guys with the exact same genetics and one only curled from the bottom to the middle of the range of motion... and the other only curled from the middle to the top of the range of motion (assuming the resistance level was the same)...

1.do you beleive the development would be equal on both guys?

2.do you think the bicep shape will slightly differ?

I wouldve learned something from Tim if i hadnt heard what he has said already but there are people who beleive that the feeling plays a big role on things and you can develop muscle where you feel it the most in the varied exercises for a individual muscle. Im sorry for being ignorant but i also beleive it is ignorant to beleive there is only one of going about things...

I beleive ROM matters a lot and in a perfect world ever exercise would require a complete ROM that is from the maximum stretch of the muscle to the maximum contraction of the muscle on the ideal maximim ROM of the skeletal fram...but that doesnt seem to always be the case and you get a different sensation in the maximum ROM of a limited exercise. I beleive that the feeling plays a big role and i beleive that it has played a big role in targeting and visualising specific areas of a muscle that i need to improove.

I used the " " face because my use of a term is what threw the monkey wrench into the whole thread and pulldown/chinup movements would still be ideal for developing the area i was mentioning.

Im sorry if im being ignorant and history will let me assume that tim will not understand what im trying to say and maybe i dont understand what he is trying to say. As i said before, sometimes you need to be organic and go by the way things feel... and also how different things feel different in different areas of the muscle. I guess i will let that apply to me and not give advice based on unproven theories and be more texbook-like in my posts regarding someone else.

EDIT: i just read tim's post. and i prolly shouldve used the term "targetting" in this post aswell... either way, ignore this post if your going to reply with something i can read in the article you mentioned... You dont "beleive" you go on facts, that is 100% understandable but many top pros and top coaches beleive in visualization which is not based on fact.

I said i shouldve used the term " back " instead of " Lats " because then it wouldnt be exclussive to the lats and it would just indicate that he can build width in his "back" in general by way of teres major and overall latissimus dorsi development from doing pulldown/chinup movements.. which, as u mentioned, includes the lats.

 

[tim290280]

^^ Sorry did you just essentially state that you don't believe in facts?!?!?!?!

Seriously?!?!?

 

[Big_Guns_Lance]

Damn dilated you need to stop reading getting this washy knowledge from mags. Read a frigging journal article for once.

 

[Jusa*]

way to go lads!

 

[Braaq]

dialated... I am not even going to respond because as tim said you don't like to read facts. You just like to "believe" and "think" up your own "facts". As BGL said, don't listen to what your favorite professional bodybuilders say in muscle mags and try to regurgitate it on a forum when someone is breaking it down for you in a more complex level. If you don't have their genetics and drugs then it would help to train like a smart bodybuilder by knowing the body better and how it works. tim is trying to help you with that.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

^^ Sorry did you just essentially state that you don't believe in facts?!?!?!?!

Seriously?!?!?

No thats not what im implying. Im trying to say that theres not always one way to go about things.

I dont want to argue and im not saying your wrong at all. Pretending we never had this conversation, what would ure answers be to these two questions?.

If you get two guys with the exact same genetics and one only curled from the bottom to the middle of the range of motion... and the other only curled from the middle to the top of the range of motion (assuming the resistance level was the same)...

1.do you beleive the development would be equal on both guys?

2.do you think the bicep shape will slightly differ?

 

[tim290280]

No thats not what im implying. Im trying to say that theres not always one way to go about things.

I dont want to argue and im not saying your wrong at all. Pretending we never had this conversation, what would ure answers be to these two questions?.

If you get two guys with the exact same genetics and one only curled from the bottom to the middle of the range of motion... and the other only curled from the middle to the top of the range of motion (assuming the resistance level was the same)...

1.do you beleive the development would be equal on both guys?

2.do you think the bicep shape will slightly differ?

Read my posts again. Understand what I'm saying. Read Braaq's post above. Science isn't an opinion, it is evidence based facts.

I will answer your questions, but only if you read more carefully and understand the difference between opinion and evidence.

1) No - You are not illiciting the same growth response
2) No - This is largely genetic

 

[Big_Guns_Lance]

Read my posts again. Understand what I'm saying. Read Braaq's post above. Science isn't an opinion, it is evidence based facts.

understand the difference between opinion and evidence.

I used to think the same (well not as much as dilated ) about what the magazines say and what bodybuilders do and never really took the time to understand the value of science because the pro's must be right because their doing it and their this big and so on. It's only really since I started University last year and looked at journals for the first time and then I saw how much BULLSHIT that are really in magazines and the alike and this is where current weight trainers are getting their information and basing their training around training articles in flex etc. Now I don't buy flex, I only buy MD because of Dorian Yates columm lol. I now respect science as like Tim said is EVIDENCE and proof that something works or doesn't work.

 

[Jusa*]

I took a most muscular pic couple of weeks ago.

 

[dilatedmuscle]

damn bro you look great. keep up the good work. Just be patient and consistant and you'll reach your goals!

 

[Jusa*]

Hello everyone and here is some updates!! Backshot and most muscular taken on sunday!! And i had my bd yesterday so I'm 17 now

 

[Jusa*]

Comments would be appreciated!

 

[DeQu]

Lookin good keep it goin !

 

[dilatedmuscle]

You look fuller then before but not as lean... Keep it up and keep building the thickness but make sure you stay lean