How Long Do you Wait Between Your PWO Shake & Meal?

[The_KM]

Amazing post, KM (as usual) and great point. I never saw the point in supplementing with Glutamine anyways seeing as it the majority of the AA makeup of Whey anyways. But that just proves it right there. Repped

Thanks bud, appreciate it. Very true. In my small lifting career, it never has sparked any interest...and I'm a teen! haha.

 

[Ironslave]

wow dude way to make me eat my own words!! (i poked fun at you in my last post ) i would actually be interested to see those studies because i'm with lionheart i have had positive results with glutamine. if i may give you an example; while dieting for my first show i noticed in the final 3 weeks leading up to it that my recovery was lacking quite substantially. usually my once a week split allows me to recover fully between workouts and with the deprived caloric state i was in it wasn't happening. i hadn't used glutamine (at least not by itself, i'm sure some of the supplements i've used have contained it). i used pure glutamine daily at around 7 grams a day in my shakes and i really have to say, it made a big difference. and may i also include that i strongly don't feel like this was a placebo effect as i did nothing different in my training/diet and was able to recover in a weeks time between workouts whereas i wasn't able to before. thoughts?

You'd be surprised. There was actually a study in the Journal of Nature that looked at the placebo affect. I cant remember the exact particulars (the study methodology Im about to mention may be a bit off), but I know it looked at dopamine release in response to a pill. One group was told they were the control group (getting a placebo), and the other were told they were getting the medication (when really, they too were getting the placebo). The group that thought they were getting a drug ended up releasing more dopamine, which shows the powerful affect that the mind can have.

I just briefly looked, and can't find the study now, but I'm surprised more in the sports science world haven't read that glutamine can keep levels of neuropeptide-y low, which in turn would keep appetite low.

 

[The Creator]

Keep the info coming guys. Good stuff. I think there comes a point in every lifters life where someone will question the effectiveness of all the powders and pills that are consumed, and having science to back it up can make you feel better about money spent and can prevent looking like a jack ass when somebody laughs at you for wasting thousands of dollars on supplements that dont work. While it is correct and simple to say "just eat a lot and keep it clean", having the research to back supplements will be very helpful in the future if not right now.

Thats my favorite thing, when somebody gives me shit for taking creatine saying that it doesnt do anything and then I can throw a study back in their face.

 

[Braaq]

Thats my favorite thing, when somebody gives me shit for taking creatine saying that it doesnt do anything and then I can throw a study back in their face.

I'm actually reading some of those studies now.... I have to give a presentation in my Muscle Bio Colloquium on "Essential Background on creatine: mechanism(s), loading & delivery, & other physiological effects." Interesting stuff, although I new the gist of it anyways.

 

[Ironslave]

Thats my favorite thing, when somebody gives me shit for taking creatine saying that it doesnt do anything and then I can throw a study back in their face.

Besides the basic mechanism of creatine (enhancing PCr stores and faster atp resynthesis and blah blah blah), it's effect on satellite cells are again, under discussed, but possibly the most beneficial way it helps with hypertrophy.

Olsen et al. Creatine supplementation augments the increase in satellite cell and myonuclei number in human skeletal muscle induced by strength training J Physiol. 2006 Jun 1;573(Pt 2):525-34. Epub 2006 Mar 31.


The present study investigated the influence of creatine and protein supplementation on satellite cell frequency and number of myonuclei in human skeletal muscle during 16 weeks of heavy-resistance training. In a double-blinded design 32 healthy, male subjects (19-26 years) were assigned to strength training (STR) while receiving a timed intake of creatine (STR-CRE) (n=9), protein (STR-PRO) (n=8) or placebo (STR-CON) (n=8), or serving as a non-training control group (CON) (n=7). Supplementation was given daily (STR-CRE: 6-24 g creatine monohydrate, STR-PRO: 20 g protein, STR-CON: placebo). Furthermore, timed protein/placebo intake were administered at all training sessions. Muscle biopsies were obtained at week 0, 4, 8 (week 8 not CON) and 16 of resistance training (3 days per week). Satellite cells were identified by immunohistochemistry. Muscle mean fibre (MFA) area was determined after histochemical analysis. All training regimes were found to increase the proportion of satellite cells, but significantly greater enhancements were observed with creatine supplementation at week 4 (compared to STR-CON) and at week 8 (compared to STR-PRO and STR-CON) (P<0.01-0.05). At week 16, satellite cell number was no longer elevated in STR-CRE, while it remained elevated in STR-PRO and STR-CON. Furthermore, creatine supplementation resulted in an increased number of myonuclei per fibre and increases of 14-17% in MFA at week 4, 8 and 16 (P<0.01). In contrast, STR-PRO showed increase in MFA only in the later (16 week, +8%) and STR-CON only in the early (week 4, +14%) phases of training, respectively (P<0.05). In STR-CRE a positive relationship was found between the percentage increases in MFA and myonuclei from baseline to week 16, respectively (r=0.67, P<0.05). No changes were observed in the control group (CON). In conclusion, the present study demonstrates for the first time that creatine supplementation in combination with strength training amplifies the training-induced increase in satellite cell number and myonuclei concentration in human skeletal muscle fibres, thereby allowing an enhanced muscle fibre growth in response to strength training.

 

[Adam23]

^^^you always post some great studies IS !!! thanks bro

 

[Braaq]

^^^you always post some great studies IS !!! thanks bro

Ya no kidding, I am using this in my presentation. None of the provided studies touch this at all. Thanks IS, this will help me add something to the presentation that my whole class and teacher may not even be aware of

Repped

 

[youngmusclejock]

This single thread is the most intelligent, mature, non-fighting, study publishing, personal experience thread on this site. I am truly impressed by each of you who have responded. I hope the future we have more threads like this one.

 

[Ironslave]

This single thread is the most intelligent, mature, non-fighting, study publishing, personal experience thread on this site. I am truly impressed by each of you who have responded. I hope the future we have more threads like this one.

I agree, we are discussing things, using evidence, learning from each other, and so on, really good thread.


Blake, though not related to creatine per say, myonuclear addition from satellite cells is probably THE most important part of the muscle hypertrophy response. It'd be good to touch on this to really drive home the point that over time (months/years), this could have a significant effect.


Here is another one, albeit much more technical, it shows other effects of creatine supplementation. A pathway heavily involved in muscle hypertrophy is the AKT/mTOR pathway, which some people may have heard of. It is often mentioned when discussing the merit of amino acid supplementation. Creatine has been shown to enhance the signaling in this pathway, which in addition to the satellite cell effect, is another way creatine may help muscle growth.


Creatine enhances differentiation of myogenic C2C12 cells by activating both p38 and Akt/PKB pathways.1: Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2007 Oct;293(4):C1263-71.

There are other ways in addition that creatine works, if anyone wants the references, I will post.

 

[The_KM]

Blake, definitely engage in the study posting here. Especially whether creatine effects creatine distribution, saturation, etc. I've read too many conflicting studies and sources to even conclude for myself, whether it's actually beneficial to the buck.

You'd be surprised. There was actually a study in the Journal of Nature that looked at the placebo affect. I cant remember the exact particulars (the study methodology Im about to mention may be a bit off), but I know it looked at dopamine release in response to a pill. One group was told they were the control group (getting a placebo), and the other were told they were getting the medication (when really, they too were getting the placebo). The group that thought they were getting a drug ended up releasing more dopamine, which shows the powerful affect that the mind can have.

I just briefly looked, and can't find the study now, but I'm surprised more in the sports science world haven't read that glutamine can keep levels of neuropeptide-y low, which in turn would keep appetite low.

Great that you mention it. If I looked, I could probably find a couple, but it'd be itneresting to see the effects of two different experiment; one using a single-blind and another using a double-blind approach. I, too, think the mind is much more involved then we think- in everyday life. For instance, if two groups were given an anti-depressant, group1 knowing and the other not, I think it'd be interesting to see serotonin levels between each group.

The mind is crazy

This single thread is the most intelligent, mature, non-fighting, study publishing, personal experience thread on this site. I am truly impressed by each of you who have responded. I hope the future we have more threads like this one.

As it always should be, I agree. Usually physiology based threads, and so on, result in discussion while IS teaches his cute (except Braaq ) little pupils, hah.

 

[Chesticles]

This single thread is the most intelligent, mature, non-fighting, study publishing, personal experience thread on this site. I am truly impressed by each of you who have responded. I hope the future we have more threads like this one.

I agree, I never thought I'd get such a detailed response like I did. Thanks guys :methman:

 

[Braaq]

Blake, definitely engage in the study posting here. Especially whether creatine effects creatine distribution, saturation, etc. I've read too many conflicting studies and sources to even conclude for myself, whether it's actually beneficial to the buck.

I would say so compared to most of the crap out there.
I do not have the studies to post because they are in PDA format, and I don't have time to search through pub-med in hopes of finding the same ones. But, I will give some of the info that I gave my presentation on:

On top of what IS has posted below, I found a study that showed Creatine supplementation results in significantly greater increases in type I and II myosin heavy chain (MHC) mRNA abundance and protein content after 12 weeks of resistance training, this suggests that an increase in MHC synthesis may account in part for the greater increase in muscle size. The apparent creatine-induced increase in MHC gene expression has been postulated to be mediated by Myogenic Regulatory Factors (MRFs) (MRFs are transcription factors that regulate myogenesis which is formation of muscular tissue). The study showed that the increase in muscle hypertrophy after disuse atrophy with creatine is directly related to protein expression of MRF4. Creatine and resistance training influence expression of certain MRFs that possibly upregulate muscle MHC and creatine kinase, which in turn could explain greater increases in muscle size and strength.

Also, Creatine has been shown to increase total body water (which we are all aware) including intracellular water. This influences glycogen levels, a study I read showed that taking creatine with a high carb diet for 5 days after exhaustive exercise increased muscle glycogen by 23% compared to groups without creatine, suggegsting that significantly increasing muscle creatine is a prerequisite to augmenting glycogen storage.

So, overall, I would say among these and several other reasons when used in combination with high intensity resistance training creatine is effective in promoting muscle hypertrophy and performance.

 

[Adam23]

^^^good info Braaq !!! thanks bro

 

[Braaq]

Thank you good sir

 

[Achilles]

30 to 60 mins

 

[philosopher]

You guys are forgetting one of the best PWO shake you can use, Chocolate Milk

I use chocolate milk pre workout (30 mins). What do you guys think of it?

 

[youngmusclejock]

I quit drinking milk some time ago. I use a pre workout drink that RazorRipped prescribed.


Chocolate milk sure does taste good!

 

[PrinceVegeta]

I love how these threads have more scientific evidence and background than a episode of House lulz....

I had a question bout glycogen restoration after workout+cardio, should u reload on fast carbs even if your goal is to lose weight? What i think is that when u reload on fast carbs after such a workour ur body will utilize those carbs to TRY to restore glycogen but burns them right back because of the high metabolism...so would it really matter to have fast carbs after such a workout?

I ask cuz i wanna know if having fast carbs after the workout mentioned above could in any way prevent me of losing weight at my full potential

k thanx

 

[Ironslave]

I had a question bout glycogen restoration after workout+cardio, should u reload on fast carbs even if your goal is to lose weight? What i think is that when u reload on fast carbs after such a workour ur body will utilize those carbs to TRY to restore glycogen but burns them right back because of the high metabolism...so would it really matter to have fast carbs after such a workout?

I ask cuz i wanna know if having fast carbs after the workout mentioned above could in any way prevent me of losing weight at my full potential

k thanx

Like most issues in physiology, there is a balance. Having glycogen levels less than saturated is certainly of advantage for fat loss. Some of what you consume will be burned for energy, but glut-4 transporter activity is increased (these transporters bring glucose into the cell), and the enzyme glycogen synthase is increased (this is the enzyme that stores glycogen).

It depends how much you want to lose, or more so, how quickly you want to use it. If you're doing a casual cut, I'd still have some after a workout, just not as much. But, if you're basically crash dieting, then cutting it out might be good.

 

[PrinceVegeta]

^^ thanx IS....i am not looking for anything drastic in my mission for weightloss...i think i will have bout 40-50 grams of carbs post workout...thanx for the info