MuscleMecca Natural Ability Debate

[Bulkboy]

braaq is right, and ive experienced the same thing with you IS. u have a tendency to come off as a dickhead from time to time, like in that gun thread, where u frequently called me an idiot and so on, without having any reason to do so other than u being provoked because i disagreed. i was provoked by ur posting in that thread, but i still did not resort to that kind of personal attacks. disagreeing and arguing is fine, but talking down to others and calling people names merely because they disagree, actually weakens peoples impression of you as an intelligent poster

 

[Ironslave]

braaq is right, and ive experienced the same thing with you IS. u have a tendency to come off as a dickhead from time to time, like in that gun thread, where u frequently called me an idiot and so on, without having any reason to do so other than u being provoked because i disagreed. i was provoked by ur posting in that thread, but i still did not resort to that kind of personal attacks. disagreeing and arguing is fine, but talking down to others and calling people names merely because they disagree, actually weakens peoples impression of you as an intelligent poster

word, i'll settle down.


.... though not to hijack too bad, even though I may be a hothead, should I carry a gun I still wouldn't go on a murderous rampage ...... or would I

 

[Konan]

braaq is right, and ive experienced the same thing with you IS. u have a tendency to come off as a dickhead from time to time, like in that gun thread, where u frequently called me an idiot and so on, without having any reason to do so other than u being provoked because i disagreed. i was provoked by ur posting in that thread, but i still did not resort to that kind of personal attacks. disagreeing and arguing is fine, but talking down to others and calling people names merely because they disagree, actually weakens peoples impression of you as an intelligent poster

Word

And I would like to add that internet debating is pretty impossible unless all participants are trying to understand each others. You can pretty much debate on anything and not reach settlement if participants don't want to understand each others and only try to proove their own point as the solid truth. In order to get something out of a conversation in internet (other than virtual penis length) you need to be open minded and make sure you always read what the other guy has to say and think over it. Not to mention always being polite, unbiased and not trying to look superior compared to others. Especially moderators.

I don't want to take part in the debate between IS and Duality. But I would like to talk about one guy in my home country who has no natural talent to bodybuilding. Absolutely nothing. He put much more effort in bodybuilding than regular Joe at local gym or even other top bodybuilding athletes in Finland. He doesn't grow fast, but slow and steady he has been increasing his mass and improving symmethry through dedication and hard work. Now he match other top bodybuilders who have much better natural talents compared to him. So I am trying to say that if you dare to dream and you are ready to work hard and dedicate yourself, you can become good. You can even become the best. Never stop believing, enjoy what you do and don't use bad genes as an explination to slack on your work outs.

Sorry for the wanna-be-jesus part

 

[ruel]

make up ur mind!

 

[Rocky]

The Training Masterclass was an 'homage'.

Just my 2 cents with regard to technique being taught as it seems the focus has been on speed - If we are talking about how being taught to become better is absolutely essential to becoming worldclass that regardless of your genes and predispostition and God given talent then surely a perfect example would be olympic lifts which to my understanding is pretty much all about technique over any genes you have for that exercise. If you look at the top ranking in the world (particularly women) then the strength and size is of complete ireelevance to the technique in performing the exericse with hours and hours of practise.

There is no way someone with good strength genes could rock up to an oly lift comp and get anywhere near someone with possibly even shoddy genes with regard to strength who has been taught to harness correct technique.
Ability is hugely influenced by practise and teachings along with any elite genes they may possess.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280As I previously stated I have no intention of continuing this argument. The fact that you are unaware of the well accepted basis of GxE interaction, a cornerstone of genetics, shows why it is merely wasting my time.

alright buddy i'm clearly not as educated as you. however just because science says that environment is 50% of what someone becomes is simply absurd. scientists a decade ago INSISTED that anabolic steroids did absolutetly nothing for muscle growth. they were adament for years that they served no athletic purpose whatsoever. now did you or any other bber believe that bullshit? not for a second. but scientists said so right? i fully admit that if this arguement gets very technical you will come out the victor. but dude YOU HAVE GOT to admit that that environment thing is absolute nonsense. what do you have to say about all the examples i cited that disprove that theory (and that's what it is, a theory, not a fact) who grew up with nothing in negative environments, who still became amazing athletes because of their natural talent? i'm sure you'll ignore this, but you can not deny reality by throwing some studies at me.

 

[philosopher]

Ironslave = JornT :carduindisguise

 

[Ironslave]

Ironslave = JornT :carduindisguise

with muscles

 

[Braaq]

with muscles

I was drunk like you when I posted that... but I still stand by it. Even though this is the internet, normal social etiquette does and should apply. Just because you are miles from the person in front of a screen and nothing can be done doesn't mean that you should insult or talk down to someone. Especially you, the thing that people have respect for you so much is that your are so intelligent but usually very humble and modest. With tim it is expected because that seems to just be his nature, he is very intelligent and knows it.
Just be the better man is all I am trying to say bro

 

[Duality]

^ again the ever impartial braaq. i know you are saying what you think is right and not just because we are friends.

 

[tim290280]

alright buddy i'm clearly not as educated as you. however just because science says that environment is 50% of what someone becomes is simply absurd. scientists a decade ago INSISTED that anabolic steroids did absolutetly nothing for muscle growth. they were adament for years that they served no athletic purpose whatsoever. now did you or any other bber believe that bullshit? not for a second. but scientists said so right? i fully admit that if this arguement gets very technical you will come out the victor. but dude YOU HAVE GOT to admit that that environment thing is absolute nonsense. what do you have to say about all the examples i cited that disprove that theory (and that's what it is, a theory, not a fact) who grew up with nothing in negative environments, who still became amazing athletes because of their natural talent? i'm sure you'll ignore this, but you can not deny reality by throwing some studies at me.

How about I just start quoting/cut and paste from a text book on the subject? A subject that has been studied for hundreds of years by many scientists that have explored all sorts of relationships that prove this interaction. Seriously you'll be trying to tell me the world is flat next.:methman:

Gene expression

Genetic code
The genetic code: DNA, through a messenger RNA intermediate, codes for protein with a triplet code. Genes generally express their functional effect through the production of proteins, which are complex molecules responsible for most functions in the cell. Proteins are chains of amino acids, and the DNA sequence of a gene (through RNA intermediate) is used to produce a specific protein sequence. This process begins with the production of an RNA molecule with a sequence matching the gene's DNA sequence, a process called transcription.

This messenger RNA molecule is then used to produce a corresponding amino acid sequence through a process called translation. Each group of three nucleotides in the sequence, called a codon, corresponds to one of the twenty possible amino acids in protein - this correspondence is called the genetic code.[45] The flow of information is unidirectional: information is transferred from nucleotide sequences into the amino acid sequence of proteins, but it never transfers from protein back into the sequence of DNA—a phenomenon Francis Crick called the central dogma of molecular biology.[46]

The dynamic structure of hemoglobin is responsible for its ability to transport oxygen within mammalian blood. A single amino acid change causes hemoglobin to form fibers.The specific sequence of amino acids results in a unique three-dimensional structure for that protein, and the three-dimensional structures of protein are related to their function.[47][48] Some are simple structural molecules, like the fibers formed by the protein collagen. Proteins can bind to other proteins and simple molecules, sometimes acting as enzymes by facilitating chemical reactions within the bound molecules (without changing the structure of the protein itself). Protein structure is dynamic; the protein hemoglobin bends into slightly different forms as it facilitates the capture, transport, and release of oxygen molecules within mammalian blood.

A single nucleotide difference within DNA can cause a single change in the amino acid sequence of a protein. Because protein structures are the result of their amino acid sequences, some changes can dramatically change the properties of a protein by destabilizing the structure or changing the surface of the protein in a way that changes its interaction with other proteins and molecules. For example, sickle-cell anemia is a human genetic disease that results from a single base difference within the coding region for the β-globin section of hemoglobin, causing a single amino acid change that changes hemoglobin's physical properties.[49] Sickle-cell versions of hemoglobin stick to themselves, stacking to form fibers that distort the shape of red blood cells carrying the protein. These sickle-shaped cells no longer flow smoothly through blood vessels, having a tendency to clog or degrade, causing the medical problems associated with this disease.

Some genes are transcribed into RNA but are not translated into protein products - these are called non-coding RNA molecules. In some cases, these products fold into structures which are involved in critical cell functions (eg. ribosomal RNA and transfer RNA). RNA can also have regulatory effect through hybridization interactions with other RNA molecules (eg. microRNA).

Nature versus nurture

Siamese cats have a temperature-sensitive mutation in pigment production. Although genes contain all the information an organism uses to function, the environment plays an important role in determining the ultimate phenotype—a dichotomy often referred to as "nature vs. nurture." The phenotype of an organism depends on the interaction of genetics with the environment or GxE. This is said to be a fifty percent contribution from genetics and fifty percent from the environment. One example of this is the case of temperature-sensitive mutations. Often, a single amino acid change within the sequence of a protein does not change its behavior and interactions with other molecules, but it does destabilize the structure. In a high temperature environment, where molecules are moving more quickly and hitting each other, this results in the protein losing its structure and failing to function. In a low temperature environment, however, the protein's structure is stable and functions normally. This type of mutation is visible in the coat coloration of Siamese cats, where a mutation in an enzyme responsible for pigment production causes it to destabilize and lose function at high temperatures.[50] The protein remains functional in areas of skin that are colder—legs, ears, tail, and face—and so the cat has dark fur at its extremities.

Environment also plays a dramatic role in effects of the human genetic disease phenylketonuria.[51] The mutation that causes phenylketonuria disrupts the ability of the body to break down the amino acid phenylalanine, causing a toxic build-up of an intermediate molecule that, in turn, causes severe symptoms of progressive mental retardation and seizures. If someone with the phenylketonuria mutation follows a strict diet that avoids this amino acid, however, they remain normal and healthy.

 

[bambam55]

Speed can absolutely be trained for and improved. Speed training is one of the biggest markets right now in sports.

 

[Duality]

How about I just start quoting/cut and paste from a text book on the subject? A subject that has been studied for hundreds of years by many scientists that have explored all sorts of relationships that prove this interaction. Seriously you'll be trying to tell me the world is flat next.:methman:

then i am simply just curious, what is your response to the black race being infinetly superior to other races in athletic events? most notably all the ones that require immense athletic ability. why have so many NFL and NBA athletes managed to become succesful despite this theory that environment is 50% of what you become?

 

[Skeptic]

then i am simply just curious, what is your response to the black race being infinetly superior to other races in athletic events? most notably all the ones that require immense athletic ability. why have so many NFL and NBA athletes managed to become succesful despite this theory that environment is 50% of what you become?

What about swimming? Swimming requires immense athletic ability.

 

[bambam55]

I have to say I have been with Duality in a lot these, but not this one. This has become border line judgemental. Do you think that all black athletes came from the ghetto.

When I was young and my parents were working to find ways to support us I lived in what you would call a ghetto. From that and playing college football I have numerous black friends which have went on to professional athletics. The former running back Deuce Staley went to my high school and I've had conversations about football with him where things like this were brought up. Many of the guys who grew up like that would never say that it hindered their progress in athletics. The Environment most likely helped them just as it did me. They grew up without numerous toys so they played ball. They find highschool coaches who take them under the wing and teach them to train. Do you really think these guys were just born with 4.3 speed. That is something that is partly genetic and partly developed. A lot my friends knew that if they didnt work hard for football that they wouldnt ever have a shot at college, so the environment gave them motivation.

I am not saying that genetics cant be involved at all with black athletes, I'm admitting on that one I have no idea and it should be studied. I just think you are really pushing it past its limits.

 

[Rageking]

like a great rapper once said, only 2 ways to get out the ghetto.
have a jump shot or sell dope.
most of these kids white or black or hispanic or w/e that are poor basically live on the streets playing sports. its the only thing they have to do, or get into trouble. the ones who make it have great genetic ability, but they grow up running around or playing ball all day everyday. a lot of the middle class kids stay at home and watch tv or play with toys or something. this probably has some to do with it.

 

[Duality]

^ biggie said it. "either your slinging crack rocks or you got a wicked jump shot"


bambam i am not being racial at all. but it is nonetheless a fact of life that black athletes are predominately superior to their fellow athletes. and the environment some grow up in is less than stellar and not what anyone would call the proper developmental situation for a future pro athlete. it is their natural talent that gets them noticed and out of situations that they were born into. obviously not all blacks are born in the ghetto, why would you even say that? because i certainly never did. i only cited many examples of black men being born with nothing, and making something of themselves because of their immense talent. it IS a genetic advantage. what would the other option be to you? that black athletes just work harder? that's simply not true, however they are endowed with certain athletic abilities that others just aren't.

 

[Duality]

What about swimming? Swimming requires immense athletic ability.

for one reason or another blacks as a whole have never been a presence in sports such as hockey, swimming, or winter sports. no idea why, but out of the 3 major sports leagues in the US, blacks dominate the scene both in presence and ability.

 

[Skeptic]

with swimmign its because they have Denser bones.

 

[Chesticles]

for one reason or another blacks as a whole have never been a presence in sports such as hockey, swimming, or winter sports. no idea why, but out of the 3 major sports leagues in the US, blacks dominate the scene both in presence and ability.

The reason would be because well, black people in general mainly come from hot climates, so they therefore thrive in hot conditions.