MuscleMecca Natural Ability Debate

[Duality]

with swimmign its because they have Denser bones.

that is true. quite possible. but next time you go to the beach look around, tell me how many black people you see (even though you live in australia i know so idk what the black population down there is) i can tell you that having recently came back from venice, california, i saw no more than 4 black families my entire time on the beach, and i was there every day for 4 days. they just don't like water i guess. same goes with skiing/snowboarding. i go at least once a year, and i kid you not, i have never ever seen a black family on the slopes. i guess those things just don't interest them

 

[bambam55]

Black people arent big on beaches because they tan just as we do and it makes there skin a lot darker. I dont know why but thats just how it is, its kinda funny when you hear two dudes argue over which one is blacker. Another reason could be that there is simply a lower percentage of blacks that actually know how to swim. I dont know why, but there is and if you cant swim you stay the hell out the water.

Duality you make some good points, but this initially started from you saying that you arent able to train for speed and that it was natural. Do you still feel that way or would you recant that statement? just curiuous. Also you said out of the three major sports? Were you considering the MLB as one of those three, if so your wrong. The dominant race in MLB is white and the majority of the blacks in the MLB are not even African Americans.

Also your previous argument was that genetics are dominant over the environment. Your reasoning was that athletes were coming from the ghetto. I'm saying that this as well could beneficial to prove that the environment plays a dominant role because these kids have nothing else to do but play ball, go lift (may not be some fancy gym but they do it), and run all day. When you grow up in a middle to upper class family your not worried about how your gonna be able to go to college so there is less of a demand for that person to be an athlete. This ghetto environment produces a higher demand for someone to be athletic and thus the results are athletes.

 

[Achilles]

Also your previous argument was that genetics are dominant over the environment. Your reasoning was that athletes were coming from the ghetto. I'm saying that this as well could beneficial to prove that the environment plays a dominant role because these kids have nothing else to do but play ball, go lift (may not be some fancy gym but they do it), and run all day. When you grow up in a middle to upper class family your not worried about how your gonna be able to go to college so there is less of a demand for that person to be an athlete. This ghetto environment produces a higher demand for someone to be athletic and thus the results are athletes.

Lets not forget this could be their only way out of the ghetto. They can have a better life so their more dedicated than others. Evironment is very improtant though you have to have some kind of good genetics if you wanna be a world class athlete. Everybody can be good at what they do but their are only a few who can be world class

 

[Ironslave]

then i am simply just curious, what is your response to the black race being infinetly superior to other races in athletic events? most notably all the ones that require immense athletic ability. why have so many NFL and NBA athletes managed to become succesful despite this theory that environment is 50% of what you become?

Dude, you're taking things extreme. I'd be the first to agree with you, genetically blacks have a superior genetic make up with the potential to be world class athletes. I will repeat this, world class athletes! The NBA and especially NFL is indeed an instance where no matter how hard one trains, if they don't have the genetics for it, they don't have a chance in hell. Why? Because they will be going up against people with far greater genetic make up, PLUS those people have been training their ass off too!

The Iceland recreational basketball league is NOT a level where athletes are truly highly trained and near a plateau as far as improving speed or athletic ability.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Bambam55
Black people arent big on beaches because they tan just as we do and it makes there skin a lot darker. I dont know why but thats just how it is,

this is completely outlandish with no substance to it at all. dude this cannot seriously be your reasoning as to why blacks avoid the beach? i guess they should just stay indoors altogether then right? if this is your theory that's fine, but it is not in the least bit factual.

Duality you make some good points, but this initially started from you saying that you arent able to train for speed and that it was natural. Do you still feel that way or would you recant that statement? just curiuous.

you can train to enhance and improve your speed yes. i better way to put it would to say you can't teach athletic talent or you can't teach natural ability (which that sentence alone is redundant because the definition of natural already implies that it wasn't taught but bestowed at birth). you then train to enhance these things. but the genetics have to be there if you truly want to be fast.

Also you said out of the three major sports? Were you considering the MLB as one of those three, if so your wrong. The dominant race in MLB is white and the majority of the blacks in the MLB are not even African Americans

i guess by blacks you mean dominicans and latinos who appear black but are not african american. notice how i have been saying "black" all this time and not "african american".....that's what i meant. and i was referring to all the 3 sports leagues as a whole.

This ghetto environment produces a higher demand for someone to be athletic and thus the results are athletes.

so you're saying if all the sudden whites started predominatly living in the ghetto we would see a huge increase in the number of white pro athletes? because that's what this statement implies, that it is the ghetto environment that is making these athletes. that notion is ridiculous and completely dismisses the black man's genetics.

again bro i don't want to be insulting but these are not could rebuttal statements against what i have been saying. they are pure speculation(and rather far fetched, the ghetto is responsible for all the athletes it produces!? ). you cannot say the same about what i have posted.

 

[Ironslave]

for one reason or another blacks as a whole have never been a presence in sports such as hockey, swimming, or winter sports. no idea why, but out of the 3 major sports leagues in the US, blacks dominate the scene both in presence and ability.

This is entirely due to social and economic factors. It doesn't cost any money to get a football or basketball, find an open park/court and just play for hours on end. However, winter sports cost a fuck load for equipment (as a hockey player my equipment probably cost close to a grand when I was playing at my most competitive level), ice time costs over $100 an hour, skis and slope fees are also expensive as hell, etc.

Edit: I don't have any statistics on average, but it's fair to say the average black person comes from a lower socioeconomic class than a white person.

Plus, most black kids look up to athletes such as your Jordan, Shaq, Emmit Smith, Jerry Rice, Ladanian Tomlinson and so on. Why? It's part of their "culture" to play these sports.

 

[Duality]

Dude, you're taking things extreme. I'd be the first to agree with you, genetically blacks have a superior genetic make up with the potential to be world class athletes. I will repeat this, world class athletes! The NBA and especially NFL is indeed an instance where no matter how hard one trains, if they don't have the genetics for it, they don't have a chance in hell. Why? Because they will be going up against people with far greater genetic make up, PLUS those people have been training their ass off too!

The Iceland recreational basketball league is NOT a level where athletes are truly highly trained and near a plateau as far as improving speed or athletic ability.

i know you're right and that's because i've come to the realization that my arguement from the beginning was to the extereme. this is more what i meant when i made my original statements. that if you don't have the genes, you can never become the best. subliminally i was referring to such leagues as the NFL and NBA and world class sprinters. i think this better clarifies what i have been trying to say right?

and again i agree entirely with your post. we are seeing more eye to eye now.

 

[Big_Guns_Lance]

:io:

 

[Bulkboy]

can someone please explain to me how black people are constructed superiorly genetically than white people for athletics. ive always had that perception, but ive never really gotten it confirmed through studies and such. is it just that they have higher test levels or what?

 

[Ironslave]

i know you're right and that's because i've come to the realization that my arguement from the beginning was to the extereme. this is more what i meant when i made my original statements. that if you don't have the genes, you can never become the best. subliminally i was referring to such leagues as the NFL and NBA and world class sprinters. i think this better clarifies what i have been trying to say right?

and again i agree entirely with your post. we are seeing more eye to eye now.

Yes, it your initial argument that "you can't teach speed" was extreme. We are seeing eye to eye and I'm glad you clarified. However, Tim or Tunen would certainly agree that if someone doesn't have the genetics for it, no matter how hard they trained, they'll never make the NBA/NFL etc.

However still, someone WITH the genetics to be one of the best in the world still has to put the work in to get there.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Bulkboy
can someone please explain to me how black people are constructed superiorly genetically than white people for athletics. ive always had that perception, but ive never really gotten it confirmed through studies and such. is it just that they have higher test levels or what?

in the united states it could very well be due to breeding. when slaves were brought from all over the country the weak ones were killed or allowed to die if ill and the strongest male and female were used to create more slaves. this process carried on for as long as slavery was allowed, continually creating more physically superior slaves. this is similar to what dog breeders do as well, it's selective breeding to bring forth the best most desirable traits in a species. though this is a disgusting practice in humans, it did happen and we are witnessing the results in the present.

 

[Ironslave]

can someone please explain to me how black people are constructed superiorly genetically than white people for athletics. ive always had that perception, but ive never really gotten it confirmed through studies and such. is it just that they have higher test levels or what?

Here's a comment from Tim Noakes, probably one of the top 10 exercise physiologists in the world.

December 2000, Vol. 90, No. 12

Special Review:

TABOO: WHY BLACK ATHLETES DOMINATE SPORTS AND WHY WE'RE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT

Reviewed by Tim Noakes, Professor in the Discovery Health Chair of Exercise and Sports Science, University of Cape Town Medical School, South Africa.

Much as we might wish it, science, like sport, is not ever politically neutral. Einstein foresaw this even as American scientists prepared to harness atomic power for what, at the time, seemed a justifiable cause Ð the early termination of the most destructive war in the history of mankind. But the conclusion of that effort caused the end of scientific innocence and the beginning of science's political accountability.

Whilst Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It may perhaps lack the political impact of the first atomic bomb, yet its preparation and publication required real courage. For it confronts certain assumptions of what one may and may not research and discuss publicly in our politically-correct society.

In broad outline Taboo, which has been written "for those intrigued by one of the more remarkable phenomena of our time Ð the monumental success of the black athletes in defiance of considerable odds", addresses three related issues. Each challenges conventional wisdom and exposes prejudice. The result is that this is not a neutral book; it has the potential to invoke either scorn or praise, in equal measure, depending on one's core beliefs.

The first issue, suggested by the title, is a detailed review of ethnic (or racial, depending on one's sensitivities) differences in sporting abilities, most especially in those sports popular in North America and including basketball, football, track and field, and, to a lesser extent, baseball. The book is not a review of all the world's sports. For it is clear that black athletes do not, nor ever will, dominate all sports. There will always be a place for Caucasian swimmers, Asian racket players, Brazilian soccer players, East European gymnasts and so on, amongst many other obvious examples.

Taboo provides the irrefutable evidence that there are some sports in which persons of African descent outperform, to a quite remarkable degree, all the elite athletes from the rest of the world. This challenges the belief that sporting ability is equally distributed amongst all the world's peoples so that regional differences in opportunity alone explain why some countries dominate specific sports. The dominance of international distance running by the East Africans, especially Kenyans, is an obvious example. It becomes even more remarkable when one learns that this Kenyan dominance is expressed by a population of fewer than 3 million from the Western Kenyan highlands. In fact, a majority of these great athletes were born within 100 km of the rural town of Eldoret, where they enjoy little in the way of sophisticated medical or scientific support. The inability of leading sporting nations including the United States and Australia, but also the former German Democratic Republic, to produce equally good male distance runners, argues against a purely environmental explanation for this phenomenon. Similarly, if Kenya provides the ideal running environment, why are there no world-class Kenyan sprinters?

Some Kenyans are also uncertain that their success is due solely to the near ideal running environment of the Western Highlands. Entine quotes the opinion of Ibrahim Hussein, thrice winner of the Boston Marathon: "To be world class, you have to be a natural athlete. It's not that I won't work as hard as the person who does not have as much natural ability. I like people to think I'm a natural athlete. It helps me beat them mentally." Or, according to the first great Kenyan athlete, Olympic gold medallist, Kip Keino: "We are natural athletes. Most of our runners are naturally born athletes. We have only to work on improvement, the technical part of it. We feel that running is in our blood."

Few North Americans are unaware of the unique brilliance of Michael Jordan, Carl Lewis and Michael Johnson, or of the dominance of basketball, football and the track sprinting events by black Americans; or of the concept of the "White Man's disease".

Taboo details how black American athletes, actively excluded from those sports until after World War II, have subsequently risen to a position of unchallenged dominance. Entine notes, for example, that whereas 1 in 90 000 white male basketball players is likely to find employment on the courts of the NBA, the corresponding figure for black basketball players is 1 in 4000. Although baseball is a sport increasingly dominated by athletes from the Dominican Republic and less by black Americans, yet it is baseball that provides one of the most compelling statistics in this book. Using historical performance data, baseball historian Bill Jones compared the subsequent careers of a large sample of black and white baseball players, matched for performance during their rookie year. The results, he found, were "astonishing". Black players outperformed whites in a host of criteria, including the length of their careers, the number of games played as well as all batting statistics including the number of bases stolen. He concluded that: "Blacks are better athletes because they are born better athletes, which is to say that it is genetic, or they are born equal and become better athletes". If the latter postulate is correct, it begs the question: What factor(s) in professional American baseball favour the career development of black compared to white players?

It would, of course, be most interesting if any physiological basis for these specific performance differences between black and white Americans were known. But there are few data. Thus begins Entine's second quest: If there are such manifest racial (ethnic) differences in performance in certain defined, largely North American sports, why are these not actively researched, nor readily acknowledged?

The risk, according to Entine, is that such research may reveal inborn physiological differences, unacceptable to "post-modernistic reasoning". He provides examples of those who have fallen foul of public opinion for even hinting at this possibility. This thinking raises cruel memories of "race sciences", social Darwinism and the eugenics movement. In exploring these delicate issues, this book makes its greater contribution to this most complex debate.

Entine reviews the current theories of human evolution and migration including the "Out of Africa" hypothesis, and the resulting arguments for and against the existence of different human races. He explains that our distrust with the concept of race is a natural response to 200 years of harm caused by "race sciences" which, beginning in the early 1800's, consistently advocated the Euro-centric belief that all the desirable human characteristics are found only in those of Caucasian origin. Social Darwinism and the Eugenics movement then evolved to improve the quality of the world's peoples by propagating good, that is mainly Caucasian, genes and Western culture. It was out of this social construct that ultra-nationalism advanced especially in Germany leading to the Second World War and the Holocaust. Entine chronicles the irony that two of the first great black American sportsmen, Jesse Owens and Joe Louis, came to greatness during this period defeating German opponents, symbolically disproving the myth of Aryan superiority. The egalitarian movement that followed the Second World War led to the re-integration of professional North American sports and their ultimate dominance by black athletes.

Clearly any attempt to study physiological differences between groups portends a retreat to the "race sciences" and will be vigorously resisted, not least at an emotional, more visceral level. Despite this, there is a small body of research showing that there may well be physiological and anthropomorphic differences of significance between Africans of predominantly Central West African origin including black Americans; Caucasians; and Africans of East African origin. With the result that West Africans are advantaged in explosive sports of short duration, East Africans are dominant at running distances from 5- 42km, whereas Caucasians are somewhat good at most distances, but become increasingly dominant in the very long distance running races (100km or longer).

Which brings Entine to his third theme, the real Taboo: "The elephant in the living room is intelligence. In the familiar erroneous calculus, IQ and athleticism are inversely proportional." (It must be stated that this is a uniquely North American construct; superior athleticism at least in the other former colonies of the British Empire, has always been a sign of superior "breeding", a mark of nobility.)

Entine argues that it is time to decouple intelligence and physicality; to accept that there is a biodiversity amongst humans; to move beyond the sterility of the nature/nurture debate and to accept that the environment determines biology if not today than most certainly in the past and also in the future. He reminds us that the Human Genome Project may still make believers or fools of us all.

His final conclusion is that race does matter and that there are tiny physiological differences, probably genetic, that explain the African dominance in specific sports: "Humans are different. No amount of rhetoric, however well-motivated, can undermine the intriguing kaleidoscope of humanity. It's time to acknowledge and even celebrate the obvious: "It's neither racist nor a myth to say, "white men can't jump."

To which I would add that although we must certainly guard against the re-introduction of race science, if we are to progress, intellectual curiosity must not be curtailed. For diversity provides the human material to study critical medical concerns. What if the skeletal muscles of West Africans are more powerful, explosive and more durable than those of Caucasians? What if this knowledge were of value in understanding the muscular frailty that develops with age, or perhaps, any differences in disease patterns in muscular disorders between different populations?

Entine's conclusions remain to be proven. His contribution has been to add a dispassionate body of evidence that can no longer be ignored. He has raised the debate above the purely visceral and has posed a significant scientific challenge. Our duty is to provide the necessary intellectual culture in which this challenge can be met.

 

[Ironslave]

And a study, though I have also widely heard blacks have a greater type IIa and IIx fiber make up.




Fukashiro S, Abe T, Shibayama A, Brechue WF.
Acta Physiol Scand. 2002 Jul;175(3):183-7.
Department of Life Sciences, The University of Tokyo, Meguro, Tokyo, Japan.

Comparison of viscoelastic characteristics in triceps surae between Black and White athletes.


The purpose of the present study was to investigate race differences in viscoelastic characteristics of triceps surae muscle group. Black and white college sprint type athletes (n=44) participated in this study. Viscoelastic properties were assessed using the free vibration technique: subjects sat with their forefeet on the edge of a force-plate (Kistler, Switzerland) and support a frame loaded with weights (0-40 kg) on the knees. Oscillations of the triceps surae and Achilles tendon system were initiated with a hand-held hammer by tapping the weight load. Oscillations occur at frequencies of 3-6 Hz and were slightly damped. The damped oscillations in conjunction with the equation of motion of a damped mass-spring model were used to calculate the viscosity of muscle (b), and the elasticity of muscle fibres (k(d)) and tendon (k(t)) in each subject. There were little significant differences in most of physical characteristic variables between black and white athletes. Black athletes have significantly greater muscle viscosity and elasticity than white athletes while tendon elasticity is equivalent. Thus, muscle stiffness is greater among black athletes. Greater muscle stiffness could contribute to greater sprint/jump performance among black athletes, compared with white athletes, through alteration of foot/ground contact and take-off phases during sprinting/jumping.

 

[Duality]

^ great reads and it is a good justification as to why blacks are so athletically superior. IS what do you think about it being (mostly) from selective breeding from their slavery years as to why their genetic makeup is what it is today?

Originally posted by Ironslave
The inability of leading sporting nations including the United States and Australia, but also the former German Democratic Republic, to produce equally good male distance runners, argues against a purely environmental explanation for this phenomenon. Similarly, if Kenya provides the ideal running environment, why are there no world-class Kenyan sprinters

this has been my arguement to Tim about the outlandish environment consititues 50% of what an athlete is. now you posted the same thing in an article. still waiting on your justification Tim.

 

[Braaq]

with swimmign its because they have Denser bones.

Actually increased bone density is a result of weight bearing exercises/sports, swimming does not have enough resistance to increase bone density. We actually did a study of bone density in my body composition class and swimmers were near the bottom of the list when compared to other sports and bone density.

 

[Ironslave]

this has been my arguement to Tim about the outlandish environment consititues 50% of what an athlete is. now you posted the same thing in an article. still waiting on your justification Tim.

This is overall a silly argument, especially when we try and get down to ratios. Some elite athletes have good genes, and train their nuts off and acheive success (Jordan perhaps). Others have amazing genes, and still train HARD, but they could train harder (Barry Sanders maybe). Regardless, the original context of the debate was for Max in his men's league, but I think discussing elite athletes, we can all agree that there are no fat, out of shape sprinters or cornerbacks/wide receivers, etc.

^ great reads and it is a good justification as to why blacks are so athletically superior. IS what do you think about it being (mostly) from selective breeding from their slavery years as to why their genetic makeup is what it is today?

I think it's part of it, but I think it goes back further too, personally I'd put some look into heat stress protein and mitochondrial adaptations, but who knows. Too many things to speculate, and not enough research on it.

Though, I believe Jose Antonio also wrote an article on this, I'm sure someone will find it with a google search.

 

[bambam55]

Duality again your taking what I am saying to the extreme. I never said that all blacks dont go to the beach for that reason, but if you were to have a conversation with many blacks, that is there feelings.

My point was never to point out an ALL situation in which you assumed. My point was that you made this into a genetics vs. training and sided with pure genetics from the start. One of your arguments for genetics was the point that if environment was involved then how would so many blacks come from the ghetto. Everything that I said was my simple response. I'm just simply trying to get you to open your mind to the other side a little. Just as with living with any social class they all have thier positives and negatives.

I think we are seeing more eye to eye now though that you have seen that your initial statements were a little extreme. I completely agree with you that you have to have the combination of genetics and training.

 

[bambam55]

Duality I'm a history major and you've made a very good argument with selective breeding. The black males that were the biggest and strongest sold for the most at the slave markets. Slave owners would basically stud these males out in hope that they would produce more higher placed slaves, the same way they do today with horses. Something that always interest me was how the slaves were expected to do large amounts of work and the diet was very simple. I have a feeling that that could of taken part in the process as well. You have a very good argument, but at the same time it would be hard to confirm because slavery has been in all nations with all types of people with all sorts of different treatment. Also today I really believe in America most people dont have a "pure race", we are the make up of various cultures so there are many variables to this. I think the variables involved make this really hard to go one way or the other, its just best to keep an open mind to all sides. This has turned into a very interesting thread though.

 

[tim290280]

this has been my arguement to Tim about the outlandish environment consititues 50% of what an athlete is. now you posted the same thing in an article. still waiting on your justification Tim.

For fucks sake this is pathetic :angrydude: Did you even read the text book cut and paste on genetics? Do you even have any idea of what genetics is all about? I do not have to justify a well established scientific fact.

Now as to your point about poor people and black people still making great athletes even though I list poverty as one possible environmental determiner of potential; this is selective argument. I never stated that poverty would necessarily hinder development, but it can play a factor. Another thing; for every great poor athlete I'll show you a hundred others that are dead, drug addicts, have had an arm cut off, etc in the same time frame. I don't hear you touting the equaliser of your statement that more educated and affluent people have more "success" options than just athletics, so they are more likely to give up sport when it becomes hard.

But go on: continue to live in a land of make believe where all athletes are born with a sub 10.5 sec 100m, have an inherant ability to throw a ball fast and accurately. Or maybe you could actually learn about genetics instead of basing your argument from a position of ignorance.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Tim290280
But go on: continue to live in a land of make believe where all athletes are born with a sub 10.5 sec 100m, have an inherant ability to throw a ball fast and accurately. Or maybe you could actually learn about genetics instead of basing your argument from a position of ignorance.

this statement is a total hyperbole on what i've been saying. did you not see what IS and I said? my original statement of "you can't teach speed" could probably be more accurately said as "you can't teach natural ability" meaning certain individuals have an inherent ability that is natural that cannot be taught or bestowed on those who weren't born with those genetic gifts. my original statement was more directed at elite level athletes. sports leagues like the NBA and NFL require more than hard work and dedication, they require a natural athletic talent that then must be honed and worked on to compete at such a level. that is in a nutshell what my original statement was supposed to mean. IS and I have essentially come to an agreement on this paragraph's message, is this not fair?