Reason why im voting McCain, Please watch this...

[Braaq]

I've said many many times that the soldiers have noble intentions, but it is the policy makers that don't, so I'm not putting most of the blame on them. Having said that, why should I really respect the troops? They're not serving America's freedom, or its interests, they're just obeying orders. There's nothing honorable about that, and they do deserve some of the blame.

They deserve none of the blame, and they are doing something honorable. They are giving years of their lives away and possibly the ultimate sacrifice their life to their country. Regardless of what shithead sends them where that deserves our respect and that is honorable. They may not performing a heroic cause but they are hero's on a daily basis fighting to keep each other alive and doing what they do for their fellow soldiers not what Bush tells them.

And what does that say? How much of a problem is it that if someone stands up to an illegal war, they get the shit beat out of them or jailed? The same would have happened to a Nazi officer who disobeyed Hitler, so does that make the Nazi officer who was "just following orders" noble, or were his actions acceptable? No, not at all.

No it is called the military, I suggest you look up on it because it hasn't changed in thousands of years. The Nazi's, American's, Roman's, British, etc all military's use the same tactics to get those enlisted to follow orders and obey. So way to go on using Hitler and the Nazi's as an example because it doesn't help your cause. It just makes you try to look more extreme in your example.

I don't see what I'm missing here, I have infinite times more respect for someone like Muhammad Ali who refused to go and fight in the unjust war of Vietnam, why should I really have "troop worship" for those that go to Iraq? Again, their mere presence there is a major, major region as to why countries hate America. So, like it or not, they are part of the problem. I don't wish ill on them, I'd much rather they all came back safe... but, sorry, they're not serving their country.

Muhammad Ali didn't fight because he didn't want to fight for a country that discriminated against himself and his people. That is noble, not because he refused to fight because of the cause of the war. He was fighting his own battles at home, as were all blacks during the Civil Rights Era. Just look at what was happening in Mississippi, that might as well have been a war during that time.
Their presence is not their choice, their sacrifice is their choice. Our presence there is creating resentment but that is not their fault, it is the commander in chief's. They are serving their country either way you look at it, just not in your eyes but time in the service is serving your country regardless what the cause or who disagrees.

Either way I agree with you on our foreign policy and how we should not be there meddling in their affairs. However, we can agree do disagree on your disrespect and disapproval of our men and woman in uniform.

 

[Ironslave]

They deserve none of the blame, and they are doing something honorable. They are giving years of their lives away and possibly the ultimate sacrifice their life to their country. Regardless of what shithead sends them where that deserves our respect and that is honorable. They may not performing a heroic cause but they are hero's on a daily basis fighting to keep each other alive and doing what they do for their fellow soldiers not what Bush tells them.

How are they making a sacrifice for their country?Truthfully, answer me this. What has being in Iraq done to American's except made them (much) poorer, more hated, and Americans have been killed. Iraq never did anything to America, nothing. I challenge you to name one single way that the troops in Iraq have made America better than it was before the war began in 2003.


It is an irrefutable fact that no matter their individual intentions, they are making their country more hated. They are part of the American imperialist war machine. Sorry, but there's nothing honorable about occupying a country illegally. This is just blind patriotism.

No it is called the military, I suggest you look up on it because it hasn't changed in thousands of years. The Nazi's, American's, Roman's, British, etc all military's use the same tactics to get those enlisted to follow orders and obey. So way to go on using Hitler and the Nazi's as an example because it doesn't help your cause. It just makes you try to look more extreme in your example.

How is it really different? Hitler has done a lot of horrible things, and obviously the holocaust and such was pure blatant genocide. But Bush has done a lot of crimes against humanity as well. Look at the provocation that Bush did to Russia with Georgia.

Hitler invading Poland is almost identical to America invading Iraq. Lets not talk about the troops who ran the concentration camps, lets just focus on this invasion. Would you then say that Hitler's troops were hero's for obeying him, invading and occupying Poland? Did they serve their country too? This is not an extreme example at all.

Muhammad Ali didn't fight because he didn't want to fight for a country that discriminated against himself and his people. That is noble, not because he refused to fight because of the cause of the war. He was fighting his own battles at home, as were all blacks during the Civil Rights Era. Just look at what was happening in Mississippi, that might as well have been a war during that time.

Sure, he was fighting his own battles, but his major reasoning was that he was a peaceful man who refused to fight in an unjust war. He cited religious reasons, so you are incorrect in saying that the cause of the war wasn't the main factor in his decision to refuse to fight. He was infinite times more brave than any soldier who went over to "serve" in Vietnam.

Their presence is not their choice, their sacrifice is their choice. Our presence there is creating resentment but that is not their fault, it is the commander in chief's. They are serving their country either way you look at it, just not in your eyes but time in the service is serving your country regardless what the cause or who disagrees.

How is it not their fault? Of course, most of the blame falls on the policy makers, but still, they go along with it. Again, for the millionth time, they have noble intentions (most of them), but it doesn't really matter because at large, they do more harm than good. They make mistakes that kill people, and then you get the few bad apples who don't give a shit, and are just there to "kill some f'n Arabs".

Again, I challenge you to name any way that soldiers are serving America. They aren't.

Either way I agree with you on our foreign policy and how we should not be there meddling in their affairs. However, we can agree do disagree on your disrespect and disapproval of our men and woman in uniform.

Meh, it's fair to say that probably most of them either 1) don't know anything about the history or sociology of the region that their presence brings, and if they do, then 2) they put their conscience in their back pocket and march in order. Brave? Yes. Respectful? They'd have to have done something good, rather than harmful to earn that.

 

[Flex]

I challenge you to name one single way that the troops in Iraq have made America better than it was before the war began in 2003.

Create bases to surround Iran, more resources in the long run, puppet government in place that will do anything we command, some businesses benefit from the wars, use Iraq as a main base of the middle east, and overturn Saddam's preference of the Euro.

 

[Ironslave]

Create bases to surround Iran, more resources in the long run, puppet government in place that will do anything we command, some businesses benefit from the wars, use Iraq as a main base of the middle east, and overturn Saddam's preference of the Euro.

... well... I suppose I can't argue with you there

 

[Braaq]

Create bases to surround Iran, more resources in the long run, puppet government in place that will do anything we command, some businesses benefit from the wars, use Iraq as a main base of the middle east, and overturn Saddam's preference of the Euro.

Well those are definitely the reasons but now it is a matter of is that truly beneficial for the US in the long run. If we continue to get attacked for decades to come I would presume no...

 

[Ironslave]

Well those are definitely the reasons but now it is a matter of is that truly beneficial for the US in the long run. If we continue to get attacked for decades to come I would presume no...

Thing is though, it's such a shady way to go about doing things, which I know you will agree with.

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Flex
Intelligence > Experience.

not all the time good sir (though sometimes yes). i'll take the first hand account from someone who has put their money where their mouth is and witnessed what is happening over a media outlet or someone who claims to be an expert anyday.

though you are right their is a history that should be considered when discussing this. i wasn't really trying to delve into that, more just trying to convey an image of what these people are like. it's not pretty.

Did I say Afghanistan civilians are angels? I
simply stated my understanding of why they hate us. Majority of our soldiers in Afghanistan wouldn't even understand why, most soldiers are ignorant. They're brave, they deserve our respect, but they're ignorant. All they comprehend is what has been happening the last couple months rather than last couple decades.

again i dislike the fact that you and ironslave basically consider US soldiers to be brave pawns in this little chess game. while yes some are, i don't think it is fair to generalize them as such. and this generalization would CERTAINLY NOT apply to the soldier whom i spoke with. this was a well educated and intelligent man. this is why i so respect what he had to say and consider his take on the matter far more accurate to anyone else's.

 

[Ironslave]

again i dislike the fact that you and ironslave basically consider US soldiers to be brave pawns in this little chess game. while yes some are, i don't think it is fair to generalize them as such. and this generalization would CERTAINLY NOT apply to the soldier whom i spoke with. this was a well educated and intelligent man. this is why i so respect what he had to say and consider his take on the matter far more accurate to anyone else's.

Well, I know I haven't, and I know Flex wouldn't ever paint a picture of Afghanistan as a paradise of bliss. No, it's a region that has been at war for centuries, and probably always will be. They do a lot of barbaric things to each other, and others.

Again, I don't doubt for a second that the soldier wanted to help them. Having said that, that doesn't mean for a second that he could (by the fact he was so repulsed, I'm guessing he didn't). These people don't want Americans there, and all the good intentions in the world won't change that. If anything, this just reiterates my point that being there doesn't benefit them, it harms Americans, and the "official mission" is just futile.

 

[Duality]

Well, I know I haven't, and I know Flex wouldn't ever paint a picture of Afghanistan as a paradise of bliss. No, it's a region that has been at war for centuries, and probably always will be. They do a lot of barbaric things to each other, and others.

Again, I don't doubt for a second that the soldier wanted to help them. Having said that, that doesn't mean for a second that he could (by the fact he was so repulsed, I'm guessing he didn't). These people don't want Americans there, and all the good intentions in the world won't change that. If anything, this just reiterates my point that being there doesn't benefit them, it harms Americans, and the "official mission" is just futile.

good point at the end.


to put it very bluntly, after speaking with this soldier and several others (i respect the soldier that i work with far more than the others) i have very, very little pity for these people. it was described to me as the stone age and a place of filth and death, and that it would be even if we weren't there. the only thing that made these people different from an ape was the fact they knew how to work a gun. now this could easily be viewed as a moot point by you and i would understand, you can argue that these are still people or whatever, but i don't pity people as barbaric as this. that's just me though.

 

[Flex]

not all the time good sir (though sometimes yes).

There's a reason I'm not in Iraq right now, I don't suffer from blind patriotism into believing i'd be fighting for freedom. There is some truth to what Ironslave was saying.

Experience helps, but knowledge is power. I guarentee you many soldiers in Iraq can't even point out on a map where they are at the moment.

i'll take the first hand account from someone who has put their money where their mouth is and witnessed what is happening over a media outlet or someone who claims to be an expert anyday.

Let me get this straight, you'd rather listen to someone who is dropped off into a war zone and says he doesn't like them "cuz they stink and they are mean to me" over someone who can give you a full explanation as to the reason behind it.

I've never once said anything against your friend, I only brought up facts and now you're using a straw man argument to make it seem like I'm saying he's wrong.

Just for your information, I debated an ex-soldier the other day who's been in every country in the middle east. He's not an easy person to debate, I know because I've debated him before on the topic of nutrition. In result, I completely destroyed in a debate and by the time we were finished he told me he "agrees with everything I've said."

or someone who claims to be an expert anyday

I never said I was an expert, but i'll take that as a complement.

though you are right their is a history that should be considered when discussing this. i wasn't really trying to delve into that, more just trying to convey an image of what these people are like. it's not pretty.

You can't discuss this topic without history.

again i dislike the fact that you and ironslave basically consider US soldiers to be brave pawns in this little chess game.

I said most U.S. troops are ignorant, to argue against that fact would be foolish. That doesn't apply to just the troops, TURN ON THE TELEVISION. All day long we're fed with bullshit propaganda which is far from the truth. Just look at my "Iran: wipe israel off the map" thread for proof.

while yes some are, i don't think it is fair to generalize them as such. and this generalization would CERTAINLY NOT apply to the soldier whom i spoke with.

Where did I say it did?

this was a well educated and intelligent man. this is why i so respect what he had to say and consider his take on the matter far more accurate to anyone else's.

Good for you.

Let's look at the points I've stated in this thread.

-Majority of U.S. soldiers are ignorant
-They are sent into Iraq based off of lies
-They've only done more harm than good
-I respect all U.S. soldiers
-I believe U.S. soldiers are very brave

What are you even debating right now?

 

[Duality]

Originally posted by Flex
At least I have Ironslave's respect, because I don't suffer blind patriotism into believing i'd fighting for freedom. There is some truth to that.

i don't really understand what you're trying to say

Ask six people why we're in Iraq right now, you'll get six different answers. The answer you'll receive the most is freedom.

ok....i don't see you're point here. you're speaking of the general public here, and you're right. i think soldiers who have been there should have their opinions held in higher esteem.

Let me get this straight, you'd rather listen to someone who is dropped off into a war zone and says he doesn't like them "cuz they stink and they are mean to me" over someone who can give you a full explanation as to the reason behind it.

boy you and IS are the masters at trivializing something to make it look stupid. ya that's what i said

i'm not saying these people should support us being there. i'm only commenting on their repulsive behavior and lifestyle as described to me by someone who has witnessed it first hand.

I've never once said anything against your friend, I only brought up facts and now you're using a straw man argument to make it seem like I'm saying he's wrong.

huh? i never said you did. i'm not using the straw man here. we're just expressing our (different) opinions.

Just for your information, I debated an ex-soldier the other day who's been in every country in the middle east. He's not an easy person to debate, I know because I've debated him before on the topic of nutrition. In result, I completely destroyed in a debate and by the time we were finished he told me he "agrees with everything I've said."

i guess i'll have to take your word for it lol just as you've done with me giving my account from another soldier

I never said I was an expert, but i'll take that as a complement.

i wasn't referring to you (at all), i was being general.

You can't discuss this topic without history.

i was just painting a picture of what these people are like. that's it.

I said most U.S. troops are ignorant, to argue against that fact would be foolish. That doesn't apply to just the troops, TURN ON THE TELEVISION. All day long we're fed with bullshit propaganda which is far from the truth. Just look at my "Iran: wipe israel off the map" thread for proof.

ok, i agree here.

Good for you.

Let's look at the points I've stated in this thread.

-Majority of U.S. soldiers are ignorant
-They are sent into Iraq based off of lies
-They've only done more harm than good
-I respect all U.S. soldiers
-I believe U.S. soldiers are very brave

What are you even debating right now?

my goodness i wasn't even really debating in the first place. all i did was post the opinion of an afghan war veteran lower your cannons

 

[Flex]

we're just expressing our (different) opinions.

Name one thing that we disagreed on in this thread?

The only difference we've made clear is that I consider knowledge more important than experience when it comes to foreign policy. Which many Americans think alike, because for example when hezbollah captures Israeli soldiers, they automatically label them as terrorists. But, the Americans fail to realize that Israel has occupied their country and murdered Lebanese civilians for over 25 years.

I could name other examples all day, but that is exactly why knowledge > experience when it comes to foreign policy.

 

[Duality]

Name one thing that we disagreed on in this thread?

The only difference we've made clear is that I consider knowledge more important than experience when it comes to foreign policy. Which many Americans think alike, because for example when hezbollah captures Israeli soldiers, they automatically label them as terrorists. But, the Americans fail to realize that Israel has occupied their country and murdered Lebanese civilians for over 25 years.

I could name other examples all day, but that is exactly why knowledge > experience when it comes to foreign policy.

lol i don't think america fails to realize it, i think they chose not to.



we tend to do that a lot :wutyousay:

 

[Flex]

lol i don't think america fails to realize it, i think they chose not to.



we tend to do that a lot :wutyousay:

I think this debate is going nowhere fast, lol. Everything we have said is in agreement with one another.

The only real debate going on here is whether or not U.S. soldiers deserve respect or not. I think both sides (Braaq & Ironslave) are making excellent points. Overall, my opinion is the soldiers deserve respect because they believe they are doing good for the American people. However, most of them need a major history lesson and deserve to be ridiculed for killing people without any knowledge behind why other than "they were shootin at me."

So, both sides are right.

/end thread

 

[Hypocrisy86]

hey my poptarts are done

 

[Beefcake]

Can I ask the americans here something?

I'm Canadian, and truthfully I couldn't give two shits about anything political. Weither Canadian, American, African, etc. It really bores me. But I see people like IS, Flex, Tech, and whoever else talk about politics like it's going to make a difference. So my question is: What is it about politics that you find interesting? I've tried to read about Ron Paul and all those guys, watch videos and debates, and I can take interest in it at all. I can't find what people find so damn interesting about it.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, it's really just an innocent question. I'm interested in what you actually find enjoyable about politics.

 

[Tonyk212000]

^ Well are brains are just more developed JK though.


Most of us find it interesting because we are more mature (not making fun of you but are priorities are just more focused on world issues rather than doing other things)

The main reason most of us are interested in it because it affects they way we live. Say someone changed the way your little "drug business" runs, would you become interested in how it affects this business? Would you then become interested in how these people are changing it and as to why? Putting it in this perspective for you might help you understand (once again none of this is in an asshole manor, just trying to relate it to your situation and life)


Politics is just a main part of our lives and affects most of what we do and how we live. This is why it becomes important and interesting to us. Things that affect our lives should be one of our main focuses rather than useless consumer information.


I hope this helps

 

[Ironslave]

Can I ask the americans here something?

I'm Canadian, and truthfully I couldn't give two shits about anything political. Weither Canadian, American, African, etc. It really bores me. But I see people like IS, Flex, Tech, and whoever else talk about politics like it's going to make a difference. So my question is: What is it about politics that you find interesting? I've tried to read about Ron Paul and all those guys, watch videos and debates, and I can take interest in it at all. I can't find what people find so damn interesting about it.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, it's really just an innocent question. I'm interested in what you actually find enjoyable about politics.

It's a fair post.

My big issue is the wars. Look at all the harm that the current administration has done around the world, I don't see how anybody can remain apathetic to that.

.. but, what really took it to the next level for me, were these videos of Ron Paul. Here's a guy who is literally risking his life every time he speaks, yet still does. Through everything, he cannot be bought, nor can his integrity ever be compromised. If anybody thinks that one person can't make a difference, look at this man. Sure, he didn't win, and he didn't end the wars... but the generation of people he has inspired will make an impact that will certainly be noticed.

 

[Beefcake]

Tonyk, I suppose I can see it that way. But to be 100% honest, even if it effected my life DIRECTLY and immediately, I still wouldn't give two shits about it.

I even asked my Uncle who lives in Texas last time he came up about how he felt about the election. And I directly quote him "This election has been overanalyzed from every possible way. The sooner people realize that things are going to get worse before they get better, the more well off they will be. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves. Plain and simple."

I really cannot fathom the time it takes to learn about all this and keep up with the shit that's happening, let alone actually taking intrest in something so convoluted and pointless as politics or this election. The only way having heated debates like what occur in the politics section can possibly make a difference, is that it is just another post with someone going on and on about their beliefs trying to 'set someone straight.' IMO, if someone wanted to be set straight, they would ask for it.

No offence to those who are interested in political things or the U.S. Election, but this is what I believe. I would be glad to hear more people's responses

 

[Ironslave]

Tonyk, I suppose I can see it that way. But to be 100% honest, even if it effected my life DIRECTLY and immediately, I still wouldn't give two shits about it.

I even asked my Uncle who lives in Texas last time he came up about how he felt about the election. And I directly quote him "This election has been overanalyzed from every possible way. The sooner people realize that things are going to get worse before they get better, the more well off they will be. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves. Plain and simple."

I really cannot fathom the time it takes to learn about all this and keep up with the shit that's happening, let alone actually taking intrest in something so convoluted and pointless as politics or this election. The only way having heated debates like what occur in the politics section can possibly make a difference, is that it is just another post with someone going on and on about their beliefs trying to 'set someone straight.' IMO, if someone wanted to be set straight, they would ask for it.

No offence to those who are interested in political things or the U.S. Election, but this is what I believe. I would be glad to hear more people's responses

Well, he's right... with the candidates left, things are going to get worse.