Reason why im voting McCain, Please watch this...

[Ironslave]

im telling you dont feel completely bad about civilians that died, have you guys not seen black hawk down? when the lady goes to pick up the rifle and the soldier is saying "dont do it" so she grabs it and he takes her out, alot of those civilian casualties arent as innocent as you think they are, i saw a sniper take out a little kid because he was running around with a AK, does it suck? yes it does, but he saved alot of lives.

Are you seriously rationalizing the murder of civilians?? Sorry, but this is absolutely heartless and pathetic.

They're not as "innocent as we think" because they hate American troops. You guys invaded their country, bombed the shit out of it, your government overthrows their governments (even if they democratically elect them), puts what it wants in place, and steals billions of dollars of their resources.

Fuck man, wake up.

 

[theweapon]

pathetic and heartless? when they are shooting at you first? like ive asked you before if a little kid is shooting at you what would you do? and you said "shoot back", i think your condraticting yourself there. its ok for you(thinking as a civilian) to shoot back, but when our troops are there and they defend themselves, its completely wrong no questions asked.

 

[Duality]

just want to chime in here on something an afghan war veteran told me in regards to what you guys are talking about. he's currently a co-worker of mine and is a very intelligent man, i have immense respect for him. he does not support the war and still doesn't and was deployed for 16 months, but his view on the "civilians" has changed dramatically. before even going there (and these are not my words) he felt sorry for them and honestly wanted to help them. but after continued attacks on his life and his troops and seeing how they lived, he along with many others who felt the same way IS does before heading down there, held absolutely NO pity for these people. in his own words they "live and act like barbarians and animals and have no regard for their life or others" he could barely stand to be within 8 feet of any of them because of the "horrible stench", and after seeing how they treated him, themselves, and their fellow citizens, told me he saw no difference between them and an aggressive animal.

 

[Flex]

pathetic and heartless? when they are shooting at you first? like ive asked you before if a little kid is shooting at you what would you do? and you said "shoot back", i think your condraticting yourself there. its ok for you(thinking as a civilian) to shoot back, but when our troops are there and they defend themselves, its completely wrong no questions asked.

The troops have just as much a right to defend themselves as a police officer in the United States. It's terrible, but that's what happens when you occupy sovereign countries for several years. Don't for one second make 100,000 civilians killed out to be children and women picking up AK's to shoot at our troops.

A child with an AK may be considered a civilian, but anyone over the age of about 14 would be considered an insurgent/terrorist in the Western world media. Most of these civilian deaths are caused by strategic strikes that miss their target and wipe out a building or house full of innocent civilians.

 

[Flex]

just want to chime in here on something an afghan war veteran told me in regards to what you guys are talking about. he's currently a co-worker of mine and is a very intelligent man, i have immense respect for him. he does not support the war and still doesn't and was deployed for 16 months, but his view on the "civilians" has changed dramatically. before even going there (and these are not my words) he felt sorry for them and honestly wanted to help them. but after continued attacks on his life and his troops and seeing how they lived, he along with many others who felt the same way IS does before heading down there, held absolutely NO pity for these people. in his own words they "live and act like barbarians and animals and have no regard for their life or others" he could barely stand to be within 8 feet of any of them because of the "horrible stench", and after seeing how they treated him, themselves, and their fellow citizens, told me he saw no difference between them and an aggressive animal.

Learn about the U.S. history involvment with Afghanistan and then you'll understand why an Afghan civilian would hate all U.S. troops.

Because of us, their Democratic government got overthrown. So they had to live eight years under a mujahideen government, where men and especially women were treated like complete shit. Look up videos of Afghan civilians in 1978 and how happy most civilians were for the installment of the new government. Then, a year later they have the Soviet Union invasion while we're funding the terrorists.

Imagine Al-Qaeda forming in the United States and we found out that China was supplying them weapons. Then after 14 years of fighting, Al-Qaeda overthrows the U.S. government and we live under their ruling until China invades 8 years later and installs their own puppet government. would you treat the Chinese troops with respect? Highly doubtful.

 

[Braaq]

I'm really disappointed in this post, simply because it just seems like you're forgetting everything you've recently been supporting, related to history, foreign policy, and so on. Are you planning on voting for McCain now again as well because he was a POW, and "can best manage the war?"

On contrary, I am still against the war and believe in everything your saying to a degree. However, Ron Paul would not have the disrespect you have for the American soldier. You are putting the blame on them when it should be put on the leaders who sent them to war and those in command. If you think you will join the military and not follow orders like "lemmings" (as you so put it) then think again. You will get either the shit beat out of your or severely punished and at worst court marshaled and sentenced to prison. Your not looking at the whole picture, and for someone so intelligent you have a one track mind when it comes to these issues Oh and your using nothing but Ron Pauls metaphors for your argument btw (China invading the US)

 

[Duality]

Learn about the U.S. history involvment with Afghanistan and then you'll understand why an Afghan civilian would hate all U.S. troops.

Because of us, their Democratic government got overthrown. So they had to live eight years under a mujahideen government, where men and especially women were treated like complete shit. Look up videos of Afghan civilians in 1978 and how happy most civilians were for the installment of the new government. Then, a year later they have the Soviet Union invasion while we're funding the terrorists.

Imagine Al-Qaeda forming in the United States and we found out that China was supplying them weapons. Then after 14 years of fighting, Al-Qaeda overthrows the U.S. government and we live under their ruling until China invades 8 years later and installs their own puppet government. would you treat the Chinese troops with respect? Highly doubtful.

i know what you're saying, i'm just commenting on how barbaric and uncivilized these people are. this soldier was very sincere in his wanting to help these people initially. but you could just sense how repulsed he was by the afghanis when he was describing them. everyone on here is only speculating as to what is really going on, none of us have actually been there nor experienced anything except what we read. i think it was interesting to give the take of a soldier who has first hand experience of the war zone.

 

[Duality]

On contrary, I am still against the war and believe in everything your saying to a degree. However, Ron Paul would not have the disrespect you have for the American soldier. You are putting the blame on them when it should be put on the leaders who sent them to war and those in command. If you think you will join the military and not follow orders like "lemmings" (as you so put it) then think again. You will get either the shit beat out of your or severely punished and at worst court marshaled and sentenced to prison. Your not looking at the whole picture, and for someone so intelligent you have a one track mind when it comes to these issues Oh and your using nothing but Ron Pauls metaphors for your argument btw (China invading the US)

good post!

 

[theweapon]

On contrary, I am still against the war and believe in everything your saying to a degree. However, Ron Paul would not have the disrespect you have for the American soldier. You are putting the blame on them when it should be put on the leaders who sent them to war and those in command. If you think you will join the military and not follow orders like "lemmings" (as you so put it) then think again. You will get either the shit beat out of your or severely punished and at worst court marshaled and sentenced to prison. Your not looking at the whole picture, and for someone so intelligent you have a one track mind when it comes to these issues Oh and your using nothing but Ron Pauls metaphors for your argument btw (China invading the US)

awesome braaq!, i suck at debating over the internet

 

[Ironslave]

pathetic and heartless? when they are shooting at you first? like ive asked you before if a little kid is shooting at you what would you do? and you said "shoot back", i think your condraticting yourself there. its ok for you(thinking as a civilian) to shoot back, but when our troops are there and they defend themselves, its completely wrong no questions asked.

It's just the whole perception that the civilians aren't as harmless as they seem that bothers me. I'd never take up violence against a random person, but, if a group of foreign invaders came in and destroyed my country, I'd be pretty ticked off to see them. That's all. I don't condone any type of violence, but of course you have a right to defend yourself, but it's just the perception that they don't want you there that needs to be stated.

With regards to what Duality said, I'm not debating that everyone is peaceful and wants to live a quiet life there. I've said many, many times that it's a volatile region of the world. My point is just that US troop presence there, and all the harm that the government does to their country angers them, so they will take it out on soldiers that they see. Once again, the soldiers have noble intentions, but they are victims of a government that really doesn't give a shit about them as individuals, and doesn't mind putting them in harms way.

Theweapon... what are your thoughts that many of the insurgent groups that are attacking you, and perhaps maybe even ones that killed people you know, got their weapons from America?

 

[Flex]

everyone on here is only speculating as to what is really going on, none of us have actually been there nor experienced anything except what we read. i think it was interesting to give the take of a soldier who has first hand experience of the war zone.

Intelligence > Experience.

Did I say Afghanistan civilians are angels? I simply stated my understanding of why they hate us. Majority of our soldiers in Afghanistan wouldn't even understand why, most soldiers are ignorant. They're brave, they deserve our respect, but they're ignorant. All they comprehend is what has been happening the last couple months rather than last couple decades.

 

[theweapon]

russian, bolgainian and romanian ak 47s?? from america?

 

[Tonyk212000]

This debate is making my head spin

 

[Ironslave]

On contrary, I am still against the war and believe in everything your saying to a degree. However, Ron Paul would not have the disrespect you have for the American soldier. You are putting the blame on them when it should be put on the leaders who sent them to war and those in command.

I've said many many times that the soldiers have noble intentions, but it is the policy makers that don't, so I'm not putting most of the blame on them. Having said that, why should I really respect the troops? They're not serving America's freedom, or its interests, they're just obeying orders. There's nothing honorable about that, and they do deserve some of the blame.

If you think you will join the military and not follow orders like "lemmings" (as you so put it) then think again. You will get either the shit beat out of your or severely punished and at worst court marshaled and sentenced to prison. Your not looking at the whole picture, and for someone so intelligent you have a one track mind when it comes to these issues Oh and your using nothing but Ron Pauls metaphors for your argument btw (China invading the US)

And what does that say? How much of a problem is it that if someone stands up to an illegal war, they get the shit beat out of them or jailed? The same would have happened to a Nazi officer who disobeyed Hitler, so does that make the Nazi officer who was "just following orders" noble, or were his actions acceptable? No, not at all.

I don't see what I'm missing here, I have infinite times more respect for someone like Muhammad Ali who refused to go and fight in the unjust war of Vietnam, why should I really have "troop worship" for those that go to Iraq? Again, their mere presence there is a major, major region as to why countries hate America. So, like it or not, they are part of the problem. I don't wish ill on them, I'd much rather they all came back safe... but, sorry, they're not serving their country.

 

[Ironslave]

russian, bolgainian and romanian ak 47s?? from america?

Maybe not those specific ones... but, watch this. America IS arming and giving money to these insurgents. JUST like it gave Saddam the gas he used on his own people.

 

[theweapon]

Maybe not those specific ones... but, watch this. America IS arming and giving money to these insurgents. JUST like it gave Saddam the gas he used on his own people.

what does that video tell you?

 

[Ironslave]

what does that video tell you?

That your government doesn't really give a shit about you guys, since they are arming your enemies

 

[Flex]

what does that video tell you?

It means that your tax money is being used on weapons that are given to insurgents and killing your brothers.

We supplied the mujahideen in the 80's, we supplied Saddam, yet we havn't learned anything because we continue to do it in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

 

[theweapon]

i musta heard different i could of sworn the problem was we supplied iraqi police with weapons, and they went missing and they were possibly in the hands of insurgents

 

[Ironslave]

i musta heard different i could of sworn the problem was we supplied iraqi police with weapons, and they went missing and they were possibly in the hands of insurgents

Dude, the foreign policy of America is much more complex than you've ever imaged. Look into the Iran hostage crisis, America gave them bilions of dollars worth of weapons. (see Iran-Contra).

Anyways, America is most definitely arming Iraqi insurgents.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/US_confirms_it_arming_Sunni_insurgents_0610.html