TrueOutlaw
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rocky does ur pain hurt the entire time you lift the arm or does it hurt as you lift it then subside after you get it to a certain point
Alot of BBers will say "Duh!" to this one. THey've always known this, but having actual objective data is completely different from what someone thinks they feel.^^Dun dun duuuuun!!!!
Now what is JornT gonna say?!
tim290280 said:Alot of BBers will say "Duh!" to this one. THey've always known this, but having actual objective data is completely different from what someone thinks they feel.
Hopefully Jorn will have looked harder than I did to find this one, and will have something really cool to add.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206.
Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise.Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR.
The present study was designed to determine whether consumption of an oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement (EAC) before exercise results in a greater anabolic response than supplementation after resistance exercise. Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise). A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(2)H(5)]phenylalanine, femoral arteriovenous catheterization, and muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis were used to determine phenylalanine concentrations, enrichments, and net uptake across the leg. Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption in both trials. Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise in both trials. Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05). Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19). Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after EAC consumption in both trials. These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.
They cane the hell out of your chest because you have already fatigued your chest. If your shoulders are going first in bench (I'm having this problem at the moment too) then you aren't actively recruiting the chest to perform the majority of the work.Tim why do flys cane the hell out of my chest?
I can only talk from personal experience but when benching my shoulders will go then I move into a fly which I feel all the way in the chest and then cable cross overs which definately cane the whole area.
Dunno but flys "feel" like they stimulate more fibers too me
Yes. You don't need to do some isolation of the chest (as isolation doesn't exist) when you have already taxed the muscles involved with better exercises like presses. This need to do flyes and the like comes back to our obsession with split routines where we perform endless sets for 'one' muscle group. The reality is that your energy would be better spent performing more important exercises.So are you saying that, Flyes, Pec-Dec and/or Cable Cross-Overs should be omitted from all chest routines.
No my sources are the EMG studies that have been performed on exercises. When you read the entirity of the studies you realise that the basis of your routine (presses) is all that is really needed to stimulate the pec muscles. One study called flyes "suitable only as accessory exercises" due to the ineffective muscle activation, relatively low muscle peak force (I.e. the weight used wasn't really pushing the muscles to produce peak force/contract hard) and contraindicted shoulder movement. So why bother?!What is your source for this information, surely not any bodybuilder in history.
Isolating the muscle just doesn't occur in any real sense. Muscles work as groups to lift a load. Emphasis can be placed upon different groups (pecs more than tris, etc) and you can create better recruitment patterns (I posted an abstract about mind muscle in my training thread). This isn't to say that flyes don't have a place in a program, as they could aid in improving recruitment patterns for presses. I don't like leg ext's either but I do use them as a warmup to improve my VMO recruitment for sqats (etc). But to use them as a post fatigue "isolation" exercise is pointless. Either the muscles have been worked or they haven't when you performed your presses. If they haven't been worked properly then this is an issue with the way you train that a pissy accessory exercise just won't fix.In lamens terms, I thought Isolating the muscle was part of the whole idea. Keep the muscle in work and under stress to create growth.
I myself find them a very important and part of a routine when looking for the something extra in quality beef.
tim290280 said:Have your PWO shake before you workout;
The one time I skimmed the methods section........ I should stick to training!Ironslave said:I commented on this over at the other board, it's moot. Both groups fasted overnight. One group exercised totally fasted, had a shake after. The other werent fasted, because of the shake. Moral of the story, don't weight train fasted.
Studies where nutrient timing is tested, the methodology needs to be seen.
I see what you guys are saying. If anything, for me I like the flyes and cross-overs more so to give my tri's a break before the next muscle group, as I will train either Tri's or Shoulders on the same day as Chest so as not to work the Tri's three times a week.Ironslave said:And Tim is right, flies blow
As i said just an alternative to give the Tri's a break before advancing to the next muscle group mainly. But to be honest I get a good pump out of them,and that is part of the goal, so i will be keepin em, the old "if ain't broke" theory I guess.Ironslave said:Problem with flies, obviously the loading isnt sufficient, and biomechanically it leaves little room to progress compared with heavy bench. You could do a few sets at the end if you insisted, i just don't see the need.
That depends on how you do it. If you do it so that you are essentially doing a whole body routine, or an upper/lower style program then it can work well. Other wise the benefits of the program (balance around joints, thinking about antagonist movements) are lost. An example is when people do push/pull/legs, as they effectively neglecting their legs the same treatment that the upper body is recieving.Hey tim, what's your thoughts on the push/pull program?
I'm just trying to get the knowledge out amoungst people. What they do with it is their prerogative. I just hope that it is seen for the good advice it is, and not just ignored because it is different from what is already being done.As i said just an alternative to give the Tri's a break before advancing to the next muscle group mainly. But to be honest I get a good pump out of them,and that is part of the goal, so i will be keepin em, the old "if ain't broke" theory I guess.
The response form Christian;TomFurman wrote:
The nerves fire throughout the muscle. This has been known for years. There are two halves to the pecs. The sternal and clavicular. You DON'T build inner and outer pecs. That is malarky.
Check exercise physiology.
Point two. Wide Grip Bench to throat. It is not IF you get shoulder problems, but WHEN you get shoulder problems.
another post he made;Not to sound like an asshole but I do have my B.Sc. in exercise science-kinesiology as well as my M.Sc. scolarity. I've read more than my fair share of physiology textbooks in my lifetime and spend most of my free time reading research papers on the subject.
The fact is that most exercise physiology texts are either somewhat general... there is so much to cover that they do not necessarily go into the deepest details; or outdated (even the updated edition are basically copies of the first editions with some added chapters, but no correction or updates in the earlier material).
Studies by Seger et al. found that different types of muscle contraction (eccentric vs. concentric) lead to localized muscle damage in specific parts of a muscle group. Eccentric contractions creates more damage in the distal portion (near both insertions) of a muscle group while concentric contractions creates more damage in the proximal (or muscle belly) portion.
Don't get me wrong, both types of muscle contractions creates damage on the whole muscle, but the relative amount of damage to different portions of a muscle is contraction-specific. That result is an indirect indication that it IS possible to put more training stress on different portion of a muscle group.
Furthermore, more recent physiology research has found that not all muscle fibers run all the way from one insertion to the other; many muscle fibers are actually intermediate fibers that only cover a small portion of the muscle length.
While these fibers do not represent the majority of the fibers within a muscle group, they still form a significant portion of the motor unit pool. If certain muscle fibers cover only a portion of a muscle, it also indicates that it is possible to place more growth stimulation on certain parts of a muscle.
Finally the fact that different parts of a muscle group can get sore depending on the exercises being performed is also an indirect indication that putting more growth stimulation on certain parts of a muscle group is possible.
Regarding the ''danger'' of neck press; no exercise is 100% safe, and this one is no more dangerous than other movements if performed correctly and if there is no pre-existing shoulder problem.
However I'd like to say that more effective techniques and exercises tend to carry a greater risk of injuries... lifting heavy weights is potentially more dangerous than lifting baby weights... movements such as the olympic lifts, squats and deadlifts are potentially more dangerous than biceps curl and triceps kickback..., lifting fast is potentially more dangerous than lifting slowly, etc. Does that mean that we should all limit our lifting to loads under 50% of our max on isolation exercises using a slow tempo?
Anyone have any thoughts on this?I suggest that you read the review by Kawakami (2005) available in pdf format at:
I present evidence that training can lead to changes in muscle architecture, pennation angle, fiber length and also that hypertrophy is not uniform throughout the whole muscle being trained.
A recent study by Keijo H?kkinen, Arto Pakarinen, William J. Kraemer, Arja H?kkinen, Heli Valkeinen, and Markku Alen (2001) mention that:
''It is also important to point out that it has been shown in younger adults that training-induced muscle hypertrophy (measured by use of MRI) can be nonuniform along the belly of the muscle.''
Meaning that it is possible to stimulate more growth in certain portion of a muscle.
Also see a study by Jose Antonio (2000) which states the following:
''Skeletal muscle is a heterogeneous tissue that exhibits numerous inter- and intramuscular differences (i.e., architecture, fiber composition, and muscle function). An individual muscle cannot be simplistically described as a compilation of muscle fibers that span from origin to insertion. In fact, there are unique differences within a single muscle and within single muscle fibers with respect to fiber size and protein composition. Electromyographic data indicate that there is selective recruitment of different regions of a muscle that can be altered, depending on the type of exercise performed. Longitudinal resistance-training studies also demonstrate that individual muscles as well as groups of synergist muscles adapt in a regional-specific manner. The author speculates that no single exercise can maximize the hypertrophic response of all regions of a particular muscle. Thus, for maximal hypertrophy of an entire muscle, athletes (particularly bodybuilders) are justified in incorporating various exercises that purportedly stimulate growth in a regional-specific manner.''
As have I. He does raise interesting notions regarding the continuity of muscle fibers and stress being placed on different areas of a muscle group. However, I'd like to see some more studies showing a significant improvement in hypertrophy in that area and if it can be targeted for said results, because I'm skeptical. As for "muscles not growing uniformily," I wouldn't be suprised if the inconsistancy of one individual's fibers in a muscle group that he spoke of has more to do with this than specific training itself.tim290280 said:All the things I have read support the original post that training inner and outer chest is a load of crap.