The Training Support Column MkII

[tim290280]

I have been searching for the reference I found long ago about knee forces and squatting depth. Haven't found it yet but:

The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 17, No. 4, pp. 629–633.

Effect of Knee Position on Hip and Knee Torques During the Barbell Squat
ANDREW C. FRY, J. CHADWICK SMITH, and BRIAN K. SCHILLING


Human Performance Laboratories, The University of Memphis, Memphis, Tennessee 38152

ABSTRACT

Some recommendations suggest keeping the shank as vertical as possible during the barbell squat, thus keeping the knees from moving past the toes. This study examined joint kinetics occurring when forward displacement of the knees is restricted vs. when such movement is not restricted. Seven weight-trained men (mean ± SD; age = 27.9 ± 5.2 years) were videotaped while performing 2 variations of parallel barbell squats (barbell load = body weight). Either the knees were permitted to move anteriorly past the toes (unrestricted) or a wooden barrier prevented the knees from moving anteriorly past the toes (restricted). Differences resulted between static knee and hip torques for both types of squat as well as when both squat variations were compared with each other (p < 0.05). For the unrestricted squat, knee torque (N·m; mean ± SD) = 150.1 ± 50.8 and hip torque = 28.2 ± 65.0. For the restricted squat, knee torque = 117.3 ± 34.2 and hip torque = 302.7 ± 71.2. Restricted squats also produced more anterior lean of the trunk and shank and a greater internal angle at the knees and ankles. The squat technique used can affect the distribution of forces between the knees and hips and on the kinematic properties of the exercise. Practical applications: Although restricting forward movement of the knees may minimize stress on the knees, it is likely that forces are inappropriately transferred to the hips and low-back region. Thus, appropriate joint loading during this exercise may require the knees to move slightly past the toes.

Reference Data:Fry, A.C., J.C. Smith, and B.K. Schilling. Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques during the barbell squat.


Key Words: resistance exercise, weight training, kinetics, forces

 

[philosopher]

^^hmm interesting. Every personal trainer learned the opposite. Ive red an other studie about this a while ago witch was suggesting the same as this one. I'll try to find.

 

[tim290280]

Are you talking about the one done on the smith machine? They didn't publish any data on torque forces at the hip and knee, just the muscles, but you could see simmularities.

Either way post it up. I found one of the papers I'm looking for, but its as a pdf, so I'll have to get creative to post it.

Also if any one has seen/knows this paper. Early in my knee injury phase I found a paper (unknown date, author, etc) that studied knee ligament forces during squatting depth. It had the forces for each ligament (and possibly the cartilage bone forces) at depths for ATG squats.

 

[philosopher]

Are you talking about the one done on the smith machine? They didn't publish any data on torque forces at the hip and knee, just the muscles, but you could see simmularities.

Either way post it up. I found one of the papers I'm looking for, but its as a pdf, so I'll have to get creative to post it.

Also if any one has seen/knows this paper. Early in my knee injury phase I found a paper (unknown date, author, etc) that studied knee ligament forces during squatting depth. It had the forces for each ligament (and possibly the cartilage bone forces) at depths for ATG squats.

Nope it was done with barbell squat. I cant find it anymore. Btw i got the full paper of the abstract you posted. dunno if you already got it otherwise i could send it to you if you want.

 

[tim290280]

^^ The abstract above I have, and have ready access to. It is easy to grab J St Cond at uni and off the net subscription. But thanks.

I was hoping yourself, IS or someone else might have the paper (or at least the abstract or details) for the experiment I described. I've read a paper testing squat depth and forces on the knee and its ligaments, but don't have it. Gives a break down by depth for each ligament and really covered why partial squats suck and why full squats aren't that bad.

 

[Maxmonzter]

hey tim great stuff i gotta question for you buddy
i read that it better to work the muscle 2x a week so i was thinking to start next week on that. should i use 10 reps on each exercise? should i do any isolation exercises?

i was thinking to split the bodyparts like this:
day1:chest,triceps,shoulders
day2:quads,hams
day3:back,tricep,calfs
day4:chest,tricep,shoulders
day5:quads hams
day6:back,bicep,calfs

 

[tim290280]

Oooh goody a direct question for me.

Although anyone else can still chip in and help too!

I haven't read your log in awhile, so I'm just going by your avi message. At 10 weeks or so you would be best served by making sure to train heavy enough to maintain muscle mass, frequent enough so that it isn't too tempting to wipe yourself out nor leave muscle groups for a week at a time (important in contest prep, a lot can change in a week).

So twice a week is a good move, although 10 reps on all exercises isn't ideal. Try to use several exercises ranges. So day1 might have 2 major chest exercises done for 5 and 10 reps, while day 4 might use 4 and 8. Basically though, unless you are trying to deplete muscle glycogen stores for refeeding, try to keep the loadings at or above 75-80% of 1RM (for me this is around 6-7 reps for you it may be as many as 9-10).

Pre-contest is also when "isolation" (really should be called emphasis) exercises become important. Not only do you need them, I'd say they are key to bringing up (well maintaining really) weak points. Get a critical look at your physique and decide what areas need the most attention, what your strengths are (to help with posing as well). This will help decide what needs to be done first on each day, what you will use isolation exercises for to pre-exhaust, etc.

Isolation exercises it is usually best to use slightly higher rep ranges due to the smaller involvement of secondary muscles. But pick them carefully to compliment the major exercises.

Diet is going to play the biggest impact on the actual volume of work you do on any given day. So I think pairing the two is a good idea (though diet is not my forte). Don't be afraid to remove sets from a workout due to fatigue, just make sure the level of stimulation the muscle recieves is adequate.

Hope this helps. Anyone else have anything, especially on integrating diet?

 

[Maxmonzter]

how many sets each muscle should i do then?

 

[tim290280]

^^ Well ideally around a total of ~25-35 reps per body part, but this will be dominated by how much energy you have each day (4-6 sets of 80%). So some days you can operate at the top end other days the lower end.

So essentially the number of sets you'll want to go in with the goal of completing several worksets, and going by feel from there. Kinda vague, but competition prep messes with people, especially if they are still working/studying/taking the girlfriend nice places to make up for being grumpy.

I'd still like to here some input from experienced contestents.

 

[Maxmonzter]

thanks tim for all your help, i got one last question

what is your thougts on my prior program Maximum overload training?
Max-ot

 

[tim290280]

^^ sorry not actually familiar with its name. Was that the program you posted in your log and I said you needed to some here (because it was from Flex)?

For all my -ve comments about difference programs, most of my criticism is aimed at the way most programs are either marketing (I.e. nothing new, and could have been made up by anyone whose been lifting for 5yrs), completely lacking balance (lots of pressing, lots of arms and shoulders work, very little legs especially the hamstrings), or too simple ( a list of body parts is not a program).

So as long as a program has equal pushing and pulling (both loadings and movements) and lists exercises to perform at % levels of 1RM, they are usually pretty good.

 

[Maxmonzter]

You could summarize Max-OT like this:

1. Each workout should last approximately 30 to 40 minutes.
2. Train only 1 or 2 muscle groups per workout/day.
3. Do 6 to 9 total heavy sets per muscle group.
4. Do 4 to 6 reps per set.
5. Rest 2 to 3 minutes between sets. (STR)
6. Train each muscle group once every 5 to 7 days. (ITR)
7. Take a 1 week break from training every 8 to 10 weeks.

 

[tim290280]

Oh sorry I thought you were referring to something else...... I've read the Max-OT manual (serious brain freeze there lol).

There is nothing particularly wrong with Max-OT training, but it is based on some flawed ideas. For training long term, or for intermediate to advanced trainees it really isn't terrific. There's a lot of marketing for this program, with AST not exactly a reliable source of good info (hey lets compare our top of the line 95% whey protein with a bottom of the line 60% casein protein and see which one works best.....). Its also nothing new, or particularly profound.

Aside from that I would wish I had a program like that when I started. For beginers through to intermidates, simple linear stuff like Max-OT is great.

 

[tim290280]

I was musing this morning while bored at work. I've recently read a manual on sculpting the perfect body in which they break down the programs by beginers, intermediates, and advanced. This is all fine and dandy except that their ideas of an intermediate is 6 months of training, and advanced is a year and knows how to squat and deadlift.......

So here is my definition of beinger thru advanced. Feel free to comment.

Beginer: Anyone new to lifting weights, training in a fresh discipline, or having minimal continuous experience. This can include those who have had a lay off from training for an extended period.

Intermediate: Have added significant lean muscle mass, have "mastered" all the primary free weight lifts, and have attained good strength levels. The strength levels (1RM) of a peak intermediate will be;
Bench 1.5xBW
Squat 2.0xBW
Deadlift +2.0xBW (preferably 2.5xBW)
Chinup/Pullup/Dip BW+(0.5xBW)
Overhead Press BW

Advanced: Will have built exceptional size and/or strength, in excess of the markers of an intermediate. Have competed in a amateur or semi professional contest (in either strength sports or bodybuilding). Have programmed their own training.

There are other things I could add, but I want to see what others think first.

 

[Maxmonzter]

hey tim i just want to thank you on the 2x a week program
my body has changed so much i can´t belife
still not much sign of low bodyfat yet but it will come
feel free to check my log

 

[tim290280]

hey tim i just want to thank you on the 2x a week program
my body has changed so much i can´t belife

No probs. Glad its working well for you!

 

[Hypocrisy86]

I need help on keep metabolism going decent and fat burning
i can only do cardio on days i do my workouts
and i only have about 1 hour 30mins to workout
should i do 50% intensity and do 15mins of cardio before each workout?
my metabolism is pure shit.

 

[tim290280]

Hey, you helped me out earlier this week with my caving problem during squats. I hit the gym today and took some videos. Hopefully you can better diagnose my problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOgZ8x8NJq8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2QrGEQSS3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iq6ws9v5e0

The last one is me doing box squats, and I was wondering if that will help with my caving problem. Thanks a lot man.

Having viewed the vids I've only got a couple of comments:
1) Grasp the bar at a benching width. Set yourself and retract the scapular and rest the bar on the resultant ledge of muscle across the back of the shoulder.
2) Keep the chest up. This keep the upper back from rounding.
3) Keep your lower back tight. You seem to be rounding at the bottom of the lift.
4) Concentrate on keeping your thighs steady while coming up. You are moving in and out with your knees. One way to fix this is with single leg work like lunges and bulgarian squats.
5) Your box squats look pretty decent, but once again concentrate on the low back, and just touch the box, don't sit!

Overall I'd say you just need to strengthen the posterior chain, for stability in the legs and for the correct back position. You also need to accessorise in single leg work (in front of a mirror) to keep the knee tracking correctly.

 

[tim290280]

I need help on keep metabolism going decent and fat burning
i can only do cardio on days i do my workouts
and i only have about 1 hour 30mins to workout
should i do 50% intensity and do 15mins of cardio before each workout?
my metabolism is pure shit.

The most metabolically active thing you can do is eat.

So it is more about what you are doing in your diet makeup and quantity, and the intensity level of your workouts that will be at fault.

Basically you should be training with maximum intensity, eating cleaner/better, or eating less, and cardio should be a supplement to the training. If you want to get stronger and bigger then cardio comes last, if not then cardio can come first, just don't expect the same sorts of results (I.e. lean mass gains). So better to add muscle (metabolically active tissue) by training to build muscle.

 

[Hypocrisy86]

thanks TIM!