Weekly Cutler Vids

[mvsf1]

You brought up the reps thing, not me. Stop trying to change your argument. You said:

This statement is to imply that somehow big guys can't do chinups and pullups. I have categorically shown that your claim is nothing but bullshit.


Sorry, but did you just say that pullups and chinups suck?!?

I hope you are not serious, because in terms of loading, in terms of muscle recruitment, in terms of natural movements, in terms of being a closed kinetic chain exercise, in terms of challenging the back muscles there is nothing to compare (deadlifts while good are essentially an isometric for the back).

The next point you make is actually just a strawman. You wanted to try and pretend that the BBer big guys can't do chinups because they weigh so much. This is blatantly false. We have video proof from three big guys, one of them an IFBB pro, Vic. Saying that these guys have big thick backs is just misdirection. I never said they had to do chinups, they can sit in the pulldown to their hearts content for all I care.


Blah blah blah. So what if two of the videos were of powerlifters. They are still big guys doing chinups, which you were insinuating can't be done. Then Dan posts Vic doing chinups. Apparently he isn't big and worthy either. I don't know why there has to be this animosity towards powerlifters from bodybuilders and vice versa. It is pretty childish to denigrate the achievements of powerlifters just because they don't look like a Mr O competitor, just like it is pretty childish to denigrate a BBer for not suiting up and lifting in competition. I'm sure you'd hate me pointing out that, from the stats you cited of yourself, that you are weaker and smaller than me just as I would hate you pointing out that they don't make pro tan dark enough to hide my pale skin for me to step on stage.


Yes it is clearly me who is being closed minded. You decided that big guys can't do chinups and have been proven to be incorrect, yet you have continued this argument by pretending that somehow using examples that aren't Jay Cutler or Ronnie Colemen somehow doesn't count.


To my best recollection I have never commented on Jay's benching, nor the amount that he t-bar rows. I have commented on his smith machine squats and his sloppy form as being bad examples. I take a point with this bad form as people like Jay are held up as role models for people in the sport and on its fringes. If they are only exposed to poor form then they are likely to get hurt or worse never be able to train again.

But once again that is not the point. You insinuated that big guys can't do chinups, you were proved wrong. Stop trying to make this about something else.

You are funny as hell, LOL. Best 3 backs ever: Ronnie's, Dorian's, Jay's. None of them do fucking chinups. They row like mad. If you can do chinups with 55pounds on your legs, good for you. Dorian, Jay and Ronnie do/did other basic/hardcore movements. Of course you are right and of course they are wrong. Again, good for you, Tim.

I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER insinuated big guys CAN'T do chinups, I tried to argue big guys DON'T built their phisique doing chinups. Try to find where the fuck I did say that and quote it. You understood what u wanted to.

Again, my other point is that powerlifting and bobybuilding need different kind of training. If you don't know that, I feel sorry for you. That's why Jay perform "bad form" (in your opinion) movements. He only needs to grow his muscle, there is not a judge behind him in the gym while he benches: "Hey, put your feet on the ground, let the bar touch your chest and hold it for 1 second there".

Powerlifters do need to perform a good amount of chinups or whatever you want, but bodybuilders do not. Get over it.

Oh and... I'm barely 5`8, 83kg. You are (i believe) somewhere near 5'11 and 87kg. You are not bigger than me, LOL.

 

[Bulkboy]

I gotta say. accusing us of strawman arguments is alittle ironic.


my question is how does this sentence;


--> "he weighs 270 lbs LOL"


translate to this:


--> "big guys cant do chinups"


cuz thats what uve based this whole argument on

honestly, i think u came into this thread looking for an argument. u got it. congrats. now please dont play some sort of victim to verbal misunderstanding. u knew exactly what kind of response would come out of ur original post. and u set the tone even more by starting requesting and posting up videos of other big dudes doing pullups, as if to ridicule jay in a thread dedicated to him. it belongs no place at all. and im sure most cutler fans would agree with me.

id maybe get it if u saw jay doing quarter squats with a ridicolous amount of weight. that would be reason to comment. but to comment on something so petty as some pullups he's having his wife assist him with to keep his legs from swinging. i mean c'mon. when it comes to training smart, hard and getting the most out of ur training bucks considering goal achievement, jay is a legend.


oh and u could have done a better job camouflaging the personal attack on mvsf1

"I'm sure you'd hate me pointing out that, from the stats you cited of yourself, that you are weaker and smaller than me just as I would hate you pointing out that they don't make pro tan dark enough to hide my pale skin for me to step on stage."

read this to urself again. it makes about as much sense as cancer


I think someone needs to get down from their high horse and look over his own posts in this thread before complaining about everyone else.

sometimes you cant see the forest from the trees.

 

[tim290280]

You are funny as hell, LOL. Best 3 backs ever: Ronnie's, Dorian's, Jay's. None of them do fucking chinups. They row like mad. If you can do chinups with 55pounds on your legs, good for you. Dorian, Jay and Ronnie do/did other basic/hardcore movements. Of course you are right and of course they are wrong. Again, good for you, Tim.

You raised this as a non-sequiter argument. My original point was to define what Jay was doing as an assissted neutral grip chinup, not a pullup. You then posted:

He weights 270+ pounds... LOL. Anyway, he said it wasn't a back workout, maybe he do them properly on back day...

There is only one interpretation of this post. The only thing that can be drawn from it is that his weight somehow precludes him from doing anything other than assissted chinups.

Throwing in such a spurious non-sequiter is laughable. Especially considering that a similar movement has been used by all three physiques you cite. Your argument about how well developed the back is has nothing to do with your "270lbs LOL" statement, and has even less to do with my retort proving you wrong.

Oh and I believe I stated that I did chinups with 55kg, not pounds. 55kg is 121lbs, that is a big difference, please read more carefully. It took me years to get that strong, so don't insult me please.

I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER insinuated big guys CAN'T do chinups, I tried to argue big guys DON'T built their phisique doing chinups. Try to find where the fuck I did say that and quote it. You understood what u wanted to.

Yes you did. And then you tried to make it either about how powerlifters don't count or that bodybuilders have better development. The proof is in your posts for everyone to see, stop pretending it isn't.

Again, my other point is that powerlifting and bobybuilding need different kind of training. If you don't know that, I feel sorry for you. That's why Jay perform "bad form" (in your opinion) movements. He only needs to grow his muscle, there is not a judge behind him in the gym while he benches: "Hey, put your feet on the ground, let the bar touch your chest and hold it for 1 second there".

Please post evidence of me stating that bodybuilders and powerlifters need to train exactly the same. I do not hold this belief, have never held this belief and as such would have never posted to imply this.

Powerlifters do need to perform a good amount of chinups or whatever you want, but bodybuilders do not. Get over it.

Powerlifters don't need to perform a lot of chins. That is laughably stupid. PLers need to be able to lift the most weight possible on the bench, deadlift and squat. If that means never doing a chinup then that is what is best for them. Bodybuilders don't need to do them either, as their only concern is looking pretty. Chinups are a tool by which a closed kinetic chain exercise (i.e superior to the pulldowns and rows) can be used to maximally stimulate growth/strength in the muscles of the back. This has a great use for both camps.

Once again stop pretending that I was making an argument that I wasn't.

Oh and... I'm barely 5`8, 83kg. You are (i believe) somewhere near 5'11 and 87kg. You are not bigger than me, LOL.

So....... I'm taller at 5'11.5" and heavier at 195lbs (I'm making this easier for you non-metric heathens), how exactly am I not bigger??? Admittedly your proportions are slightly heavier (by a factor of 0.9) but you would not be mistaken for bigger than me in any room you wish to stand us in.

I gotta say. accusing us of strawman arguments is alittle ironic.
my question is how does this sentence;
--> "he weighs 270 lbs LOL"
translate to this:
--> "big guys cant do chinups"

It is called context. My original statement was merely defining the movement as a assissted partial neutral grip chinup. I also insinuated that the partial ROM would be of little benefit. msvf1 then stating that "he weighs 270" can then only be interpretted as "big guys can't do chinups". He is implying that being 270 somehow makes an assissted partial chinup is somehow acceptable.

I think with this clarification you will see that I'm not at fault here, as my logic is sound.

honestly, i think u came into this thread looking for an argument. u got it. congrats. now please dont play some sort of victim to verbal misunderstanding. u knew exactly what kind of response would come out of ur original post. and u set the tone even more by starting requesting and posting up videos of other big dudes doing pullups, as if to ridicule jay in a thread dedicated to him. it belongs no place at all. and im sure most cutler fans would agree with me.

No the tone was set by the response to my simple illustration that there is a difference between a pullup and a chinup, and a difference again between a chinup and one that is assissted with a partial ROM. My subsequent comment was also valid, in that you would expect an experienced trainee to be getting the most out of an exercise, something that Jay wasn't.

id maybe get it if u saw jay doing quarter squats with a ridicolous amount of weight. that would be reason to comment. but to comment on something so petty as some pullups he's having his wife assist him with to keep his legs from swinging. i mean c'mon. when it comes to training smart, hard and getting the most out of ur training bucks considering goal achievement, jay is a legend.

This is not particularly logical. How is a 1/4 squat getting flamed somehow acceptable but me defining a partial ROM as a partial ROM not acceptable?

Neither is it particularly logical to assume that Jay is a smart trainer simply because he has achieved a lot. Taking nothing away from Jay, he is a legend, he is the champ, he has stood toe to toe with probably the best of all time and been regarded as an equal or better, but don't mistake this as him having it all understood. I've met athletes that can barely spell their name, but they have dedication and will put in hours of hard work. A lot of that hard work is often misdirected, ill-applied or counterproductive.

Make no mistake upon this point. We all can stand to take a step back and look very hard at what we do, how we do it, what we are doing wrong, what we aren't doing, what we should be addressing.

oh and u could have done a better job camouflaging the personal attack on mvsf1

"I'm sure you'd hate me pointing out that, from the stats you cited of yourself, that you are weaker and smaller than me just as I would hate you pointing out that they don't make pro tan dark enough to hide my pale skin for me to step on stage."

read this to urself again. it makes about as much sense as cancer

I agree that by the time I wrote that remark I had become annoyed with the blatant misdirection and insinuations of statements I have never made, due to his idol whorship and hate for me (yes I know msvf1, don't pretend otherwise). But you will notice that my self depravating comment is also made, as I do not hate msvf1, and I'd like to not turn this into a flame-war.

I think someone needs to get down from their high horse and look over his own posts in this thread before complaining about everyone else.

sometimes you cant see the forest from the trees.

This comment is good advice for everyone, but I don't see how this is relevant. I haven't allowed myself to become hostile, you are still your friendly self, we have had an argument

Bulky my first response to your post here probably clears up most of our discussion, so you will see that I'm not casting aspersions.

I think I have said enough on this topic and defended my original point and my subsequent argument that just because you are big doesn't preclude you from doing chinups/pullups. I will not comment further.

 

[mvsf1]

Neither is it particularly logical to assume that Jay is a smart trainer simply because he has achieved a lot.

LOL, then it's just becaouse of his marvellous genetics? How in hell you can write that!? LOL. Jay is Mr Olympia just because he has good genetics (not great, superb or excelent) and he is one of the most dedicated BB ever. He usually trains the day after (or two days after) each contest (excepting this year).

I agree that by the time I wrote that remark I had become annoyed with the blatant misdirection and insinuations of statements I have never made, due to his idol whorship and hate for me (yes I know msvf1, don't pretend otherwise). But you will notice that my self depravating comment is also made, as I do not hate msvf1, and I'd like to not turn this into a flame-war.

You are reffering to me as if I was a teen. I love Jay, but Jay's not my idol and I'm not blind. In fact, I've stated a hundred times that Ronnie is the best ever. Then, Jay can't be an idol for me. Again, you're wrong.

My nick name was/is and will be mvsf1, please learn how to spell it.

Nope, I do not hate you at all, if I did, be sure I would write it right now. You wouldn't believe it, but you are not important at all in my life. Don't be so egocentric, you are 30, aren't you?

As Bulky said, I never said these words you put in my mouth. I was stating Jay is 270pounds, 3 times Mr O, he knows what he's doing. If my comment was confusing, I'm sorry, but please, don't be a child, you missandestood my point and that's all.

Cya.

 

[jonathan]

I hope this forum doesn't turn into a getbig like forum. Otherwise I am out of here.

 

[tkD]

I hope this forum doesn't turn into a getbig like forum. Otherwise I am out of here.

loooooool, far from that


and I find getbig funny though

 

[Anabolicus]

Anyone who stops arguing first, gets a cookie.

 

[Big_Guns_Lance]

I gotta say that wasn't a pull-up and like Tim said was a N chin-up. Not only that but he got assisted after 2 reps or so, pretty bad really. Especially considering he is a professional.

I hope Jay does start to implemet pull-ups with full ROM and good technique, he can't do them now because he never does them but with time and effort he will adapt. I'm sure his back would look even better.

 

[jonathan]

loooooool, far from that


and I find getbig funny though

well, I read the boards every day. It is quite bad. They insult Bob Chick so much and so many others, only to be "funny".

 

[mvsf1]

I hope this forum doesn't turn into a getbig like forum. Otherwise I am out of here.

Don't worry. Tim and I have talked about it. There is no problem now.

Please stay.... just a little bit longeeeer (8)

PS: fucking weed

 

[tkD]

Don't worry. Tim and I have talked about it. There is no problem now.

Please stay.... just a little bit longeeeer (8)

PS: fucking weed

LOL! are u a weedlifter too?

 

[mvsf1]

LOL! are u a weedlifter too?

Tnx God I'm not, but my g/f is.

 

[mvsf1]

^^ Guys check how good his midsection looks in this vid. No gut at all. That's probably good news.

 

[Johnny5]

Great video. I like how Jay guides us through the motions and stuff, offers some good tips here and there.

 

[HandyMart777]

That's a pretty lean 290!

 

[tkD]

 

[Comin_Up]

cool video i missed these ha, thank ya TKD

 

[tkD]

 

[tkD]

 

[pakiman]

^^ Guys check how good his midsection looks in this vid. No gut at all. That's probably good news.

With all due respect (because I dont want to get into a never ending argument) A "Gut" generally speaking is the protruding belly__ Roid-Gut as its known too... Distended belly!

Jay's never was that problem... it was always the "WIDTH"of his waist and not how much it was blown outwords