God caused Katrina because of sin

[Ironslave]

What does the bible say about hair?!

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire


2 Corinthians 11:6

For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

Sooo I guess any bitches who have long hair, or braided hair, are horrible sinners. I wonder though about having hair that is long and braided? Do the two wrongs cancel each other out?

 

[Zigurd]

Religion helps some people strive to be better people (ie, Serb and Ben).

But on a larger scale, you're correct.

They could strive to be better without religion... in my eyes, they would be far more powerful if they could do it without backup. Religion is for the weak.

 

[Zigurd]

This world would be a better place without extremists, or people who try to force others into something they do not want to be in any aspect of life, sexuality, spirituality, and livelyhood.That is a better statement. Prove me wrong, anyone.

I agree with your statement !!! Extremists and radicals suck !!

But you giving another true statement does not prove my first statement wrong. You are just adding :3

So... this world would be a better place without religion, prove me wrong.

 

[BigBen]

Isn't a religious "extremist" someone who actually follows the religion doctrine absolutely? Many many acts of violence come from people who are just "obeying" what is written in scripture. Do u realize that the parts of Christianity action wise you keep having problems with are covenants that are no longer held valid. Gods Covenant that is valid with all people that choose to bind into it is the covenant God made with us through Jesus. Anything in the old testimate, which would be all the violance you keep quoting is just past history. It is not the moral beliefs Christians bide into. The only thing that is taken from the old testimate reguarding how one should act dress or look are th 10 commandments. All the rules you keep referring to are all rules the Jewish people follow, NOT Christians.

For example, Muhammad Ali calls Islam a religion of peace, his faith a huge part of why he refused to fight in Vietnam. Yet, there are paragrams like the one below which call for attacking people who are Christians, for example.

Then i would say that those people have horribly mis interpreted their doctrines of faith and have taken actions against it, some what to what the terrorists do to islam.

Both follow the same book, yet one is anti-violence, the other is pro violence. Who is the extremist?I would say the one doing all the harmm, as religion is suppose to help a person be more peaceful and help others.



edit: and this is my problem with religions. It is undeniable that in many scriptures (even the Christian bible) that there are several passages that not only condone violence, but encourage it.Christian morals come from he new testimate. What does that mean. Christians in all reality are suppose to hold 2 commandments. 1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. 2. Treat your neighbor as yourself. Throughout history, infinite times more people have been killed or been a victim of violence justified by religion, than any violence religion may have prevented. These people are WRONG! Jesus never said go out and force people to convert to my ways he said go out and spread the word so that every ear from every nation may hear. That does not entail forcing people to conversion BY ANY MEANS. Jesus never forced anyone to listen to His words, people were free to come and go as they pleased.

That, and the fact that it's just an example of people following something like sheep. Religion is a cult, and that's a fact. Don't believe me? Websters defines a "cult" as :

"5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad"What is wrong with having devotion towards osmething if it holds you to a higher moral standard, and makes you want to help people whenever possible? Honestly IS i think the forcefulness of some people comes from when they feel as though they will be punished if they do not force their beliefs onto other people. That is why you have this bc they believe they will be held accountable for not making people convert to their faith. That idea is redicilous.

If Christianity isn't a cult, nothing is. Come on people, an angel descended from the sky and got Mary pregnant? Jesus was a human who was dead for like 3 days, and then somehow came back to life? Oh come on. Just think about the absurdity of these statements. I don't mind thinking an intelligent designer exists somewhere, but blindly following these typical Christian notions are just pathetic.

Just because you have problems acceting these things does not mean they did not happen. What explination do you give to miracles that have been documented on film, or that were on going on the person (ie Stigmatas: people having the wounds of Christ, mabye not all of them but the wounds on their hands and feet, or their head.) and some of these people have voulenteered to undergoes scientific review. The studies have shown no molecules that were not of the person. Their is no evidance of the body being harmed, the wounds just exsist. Meaning their was no proof of anything harming these people, but the wounds were still their. Science offers no explination for these things that happened, and they say exaclty that, their is no explination but they are definately in exsistance.

 

[BigBen]

I agree with your statement !!! Extremists and radicals suck !!

But you giving another true statement does not prove my first statement wrong. You are just adding :3

So... this world would be a better place without religion, prove me wrong.

The world would not be better without religion beacue then their would be absoloutley nothing stopping the other part of the population that does do good because of religion. The problem is not religion, the problem is misunderstanding of religion. Religion in itself is not evil. people take it and misenterpret it and make it evil. The world would be better without hatred, and ignorance. The world is better with morals that cause people do do better things. These are true statments aswell.

Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that religion makes the world a worse place not on me to prve that it does not. It is your statement your prve it correct. For every story u have of something bad happeneing, i can post a story of something amazing happening because of someones faith in God.

 

[BigBen]

They could strive to be better without religion... in my eyes, they would be far more powerful if they could do it without backup. Religion is for the weak.

We could strive to be better without Christianity but why? I need a reason now. Why should i be a better person when i can act like i use to and use people at my disgression, why?

What part of me being Christian shows that i am weak? Again you have misenterpreted who i am because you stereotyped me. Christianity shows anything but weakness.

I say that if someone is willing to be humble when they are able to brag it shows great strength in their ability to control their emotions. My faith calls me to be humble. Does that mean i do not have a healthy ego or belief in my abilities, your foolsih if you think that. My faith keeps me in good restraint because it makes me care how i treat others. If i did not care what my actions caused i could do great harm, play people, and always get away with it because in reality if you have the understanding of psychology that i do it is a very simple thing to do. Now i need a reason why i should not use my intellegance to not manipulate people. Do you have one?

I would not break the law so their are no legal consequences, but i am still immoral, i ca still get things from people, use them, and do anything i need to to get ahead. but now i need a reason to care about being moral. Pff bc it makes you feel bad? i dont care about you, i care about Ben and getting Ben ahead.

 

[Zigurd]

The world would not be better without religion beacue then their would be absoloutley nothing stopping the other part of the population that does do good because of religion. The problem is not religion, the problem is misunderstanding of religion.

Good points !!

Ok, the part of the world who does good because of God will do bad if there was no religion ? That`s absurd. That`s like saying if you take away religion from them, they lose all morals and ethics, but society (not religion) is the one that integrates those into us. I think the ex-theists would manage really well.

Religion in itself is not evil. people take it and misenterpret it and make it evil. The world would be better without hatred, and ignorance. The world is better with morals that cause people do do better things. These are true statments aswell.

Oh I know religion is not evil theoretically. But what religion does is give excuses to people for anything. If anything good happens, it was God, if anything bad happens it was Satan or God mysterious ways. So some extremists might say "this is the word of God" and shoot you. For me religion is bad because it gives people the misconception that good things happen to them not because they worked hard, but because some thing allowed it...

And I have had a major confusion all this time, if God cannot intervene, then how miracles happen ? If he cannot intervene.

Also the burden of proof is on you to prove that religion makes the world a worse place not on me to prve that it does not. It is your statement your prve it correct. For every story u have of something bad happeneing, i can post a story of something amazing happening because of someones faith in God.

The burden of proof lies on me ? Ok, Religion has caused more damage than good over the ages. More people have died than lived and healed through it. Horrible things like torture, rape, etc have been done under the name of the lord and are kept being done. Religion has done nothing worth enough to maintain it. To this day they keep slowing progress down, to this fucking day.

And I wont go into "storrytelling" to prove my arguments, because simply, God does not heal amputees. You cannot tell me any other story of a person praying and then healing miraculously, because once again, God does not heal amputees.

 

[Zigurd]

We could strive to be better without Christianity but why? I need a reason now. Why should i be a better person when i can act like i use to and use people at my disgression, why?

Why? Because you should want to. I WANT to be a better person, not because I read it, not because any God tells me to, but because I want to be better. I find that our existence is a one in a TRILLION chance, so I should do my fucking best to honor my life.

What part of me being Christian shows that i am weak? Again you have misenterpreted who i am because you stereotyped me. Christianity shows anything but weakness.

I may have stereotyped. Sorry if I did, but I still stand by it. Religion gives people a bed in which to lie peacefully. They are given a meaning to existence, a meaning to their pain, a meaning to everything that us humans have yet to understand. Even an answer to the creation of the universe!!

For me that`s weaksauce. A 1000 years ago we thought Gods made the stars bright, a 100 years ago we though god made thunderstorms, now a major part of the world think god made the universe. It seems to me God is still helping us deal with that which we don`t understand... that`s weak, because instead of finding answers, we are giving ourselves a nice little pat on the back and saying shit happened this way and moving on to pray.

When people are having rought times, they resort to God, and since it`s something much more powerful than them, they usually do get better. That`s the power of our brain. Again, weak. If you do get better, be it under your own merit. Not because you brain washed yourself into believing in something AMAZING AND SHINY.

I say that if someone is willing to be humble when they are able to brag it shows great strength in their ability to control their emotions. My faith calls me to be humble. Does that mean i do not have a healthy ego or belief in my abilities, your foolsih if you think that. My faith keeps me in good restraint because it makes me care how i treat others. If i did not care what my actions caused i could do great harm, play people, and always get away with it because in reality if you have the understanding of psychology that i do it is a very simple thing to do. Now i need a reason why i should not use my intellegance to not manipulate people. Do you have one?

Your faith calls you to be humble ? Well, I call myself to be humble, I don`t need anything to do that for me. Your faith keeps you in restraint ? I keep myself in restraint. I care about what my actions do, and I don`t need faith for it !! :3

A reason now to manipulate ? My reasons are simple, I simply don`t do to others what I would not want to be done to myself. Although if it`s urgent, I don`t see it as a problem to manipulate a person into doing something that brings no harm to them, but a major push forward to somebody else.

I would not break the law so their are no legal consequences, but i am still immoral, i ca still get things from people, use them, and do anything i need to to get ahead. but now i need a reason to care about being moral. Pff bc it makes you feel bad? i dont care about you, i care about Ben and getting Ben ahead.

See ? Another problem with religion, it makes people think they are BAD BAD BAD boys.

"YOU ARE IMPURE, ORIGINAL SIN, BLAH BLAH BLAH"

No, we are fucking awesome. Just watch what have we accomplished. You are talking to me over millions of miles, by typing on a keyboard, that has been manufactured thanks to science. Science all around you. Tell me, what has religion done for me ?

So you would run over me if it wasn`t for religion ? I think that speaks horribly about you man. Religion is the only guide for you ? Don`t you have a "super ego" ?

See why I consider religious people week ? I can do everything you do, but I run on a cleaner and simpler script. I don`t need a god to tell me to be good, I fucking want to be good.

Also, did you notice in your first statements how you said something along the lines off: "The half of the world who was religious would be worse without religion" I somehow feel you are scared about that.

I think you feel that deep down without religion you would be a bad person. Guess what, you would be a good person, with or without religion.

Just like there are hot emo chicks and ugly emo chicks... it`s not the trend that makes them ugly or hot, it`s them.

 

[BigBen]

Good points !!

Ok, the part of the world who does good because of God will do bad if there was no religion ? That`s absurd. That`s like saying if you take away religion from them, they lose all morals and ethics, but society (not religion) is the one that integrates those into us. I think the ex-theists would manage really well.


But society only expects us to act according to its standard which only seems to be getting lowered. Do you think that people are as moral as they were 50 years ago, look no further than your television and let society guide you towards what is right or wrong. The more that society accepets out in the open amoung people the farther people will go behind the scenes and the trend continues to grow more and more into more wrong being accepted as mainstream as we are further descencitized.

Oh I know religion is not evil theoretically. But what religion does is give excuses to people for anything. If anything good happens, it was God, if anything bad happens it was Satan or God mysterious ways. So some extremists might say "this is the word of God" and shoot you.Those extremists have no understanding of Gods word. Do you think these people would not have found a way to be violent without an excuse. For me religion is bad because it gives people the misconception that good things happen to them not because they worked hard, but because some thing allowed it...

And I have had a major confusion all this time, if God cannot intervene, then how miracles happen ? If he cannot intervene.

Finally, it would be basically illogical to state that miracles cannot occur. This is because in order to logically state that miracles cannot occur, a person must either know all things in the universe so that he can rightfully state miracles cannot occur, or he must have some logical proof why miracles cannot occur, or possess a sufficiently sophisticated knowledgebase to conclude the miraculous cannot occur, etc. Furthermore, it is not enough to state that there is no evidence for the miraculous since a person's experiential base is limited. It may very well be that miracles have occurred and this person is simply not aware of it.

The burden of proof lies on me ? Ok, Religion has caused more damage than good over the ages.How do you know what good it has caused when you only focus on the bad.. What if the good is individual. what if the good was no hugely historic event, but very life changing for millinons of individulas over all the years. You cannot simply disreguard the good because their is no picture book reference of every event. Your saying this is a personal conclusion. You can not measure a qualitative variable, so they cannot be weighed in comparison the way you are trying to. Thats like saying brown is better than silver. More people have died than lived and healed through it.Death is a part of life, what do you mean by this? Horrible things like torture, rape, etc have been done under the name of the lord and are kept being done.What makes you think these things would not have happened by some other means? Religion has done nothing worth enough to maintain it. Because you have not experienced it personally you cannot say that.To this day they keep slowing progress down, to this fucking day.I am going to need specifics here this is a very general statement.

And I wont go into "storrytelling" to prove my arguments, because simply, God does not heal amputees. You cannot tell me any other story of a person praying and then healing miraculously, because once again, God does not heal amputees. You just said God does not intervene didnt you? Gods plan happens, people view things as being miralces or not.

 

[BigBen]

Why? Because you should want to. I WANT to be a better person, not because I read it, not because any God tells me to, but because I want to be better. I find that our existence is a one in a TRILLION chance, so I should do my fucking best to honor my life.

Why should i want to? So waht if i am a one in a trillion chance im here arent I. You want to honor yur life because you realize how precious it is? Well i would say i want to value my llife because God was loving enough to allow me to exsist. We both find amazing value in our exsistance why am I wrong for the way i have come to believe it. More importantly why do you want me to believe that your way is more valid than mine when in fact you have no proof, or reason as to why or how we came to exsist?

I may have stereotyped. Sorry if I did, but I still stand by it. Religion gives people a bed in which to lie peacefully. They are given a meaning to existence, a meaning to their pain, a meaning to everything that us humans have yet to understand. Even an answer to the creation of the universe!!
Wha is wrong with having a meaning that gives a person strength to over come things in their life and become better beacuse of it? That is kind of judgemental of you isnt it. Your mad because someone has given value to their experiences in life in a different way than you?
For me that`s weaksauce. A 1000 years ago we thought Gods made the stars bright, a 100 years ago we though god made thunderstorms, now a major part of the world think god made the universe. It seems to me God is still helping us deal with that which we don`t understand... that`s weak, because instead of finding answers, we are giving ourselves a nice little pat on the back and saying shit happened this way and moving on to pray.
You have a vail over your eyes i dont have to look any further than directly in front of me to see Gods amazing glory in all his creation.
When people are having rought times, they resort to God, and since it`s something much more powerful than them, they usually do get better. That`s the power of our brain. Again, weak.How does looking at something stronger than yourself for strength make a person weak. That would be no different than me looking at life in terms of the romantic age of literature. Everything will come full circle if i am doing bad now i must be doing good later because i am being persistant towards achieveing good. Both people are relying on a force beyond themselves why is one weaker than the other? If you do get better, be it under your own merit. Not because you brain washed yourself into believing in something AMAZING AND SHINY.I say that that "brain washing" as you call it occurs under your own merit. What is the iffernece for a person looking inside themsleves for a greater strength than to looking beyond themslevs both the person is capeable of doing at their own will. Reguardless of the "power coming form within or beyond is irrelevant if the person can call on it at will then it may be utilized as needed.



Your faith calls you to be humble ? Well, I call myself to be humble, I don`t need anything to do that for me. Your faith keeps you in restraint ? I keep myself in restraint. I care about what my actions do, and I don`t need faith for it !! :3Well you say you do those things because you call yourself to them. I say you do those things because of sociology.

A reason now to manipulate ? My reasons are simple, I simply don`t do to others what I would not want to be done to myself.Sounds like something Jesus would say. Although if it`s urgent, I don`t see it as a problem to manipulate a person into doing something that brings no harm to them, but a major push forward to somebody else.

If it does no harm and no negativity has been done then where is the wrong doing?

See ? Another problem with religion, it makes people think they are BAD BAD BAD boys.

"YOU ARE IMPURE, ORIGINAL SIN, BLAH BLAH BLAH"

No, we are fucking awesome. Just watch what have we accomplished. You are talking to me over millions of miles, by typing on a keyboard, that has been manufactured thanks to science. Science all around you.Science comes from mans discovery because we have the most complex brain on the planet. So to look where these achievemnets originated form we would have to look from where man came from. Tell me, what has religion done for me ?Appaerntly nothing.

So you would run over me if it wasn`t for religion ? I think that speaks horribly about you man.I would not run over you what would i gain form that. Religion is the only guide for you ? Don`t you have a "super ego" ? Im sure at some point sociology would come into play. Then you have to realize that i hung out on the streets for the first 19 yyears of my life, so inevitably you would get used.

See why I consider religious people week ?no i do not. All i see is your opinions back by your own reasoning. I can do everything you do, but I run on a cleaner and simpler script. I don`t need a god to tell me to be good, I fucking want to be good. Again i say this deals with your sociology and your up bringing.

Also, did you notice in your first statements how you said something along the lines off: "The half of the world who was religious would be worse without religion" I somehow feel you are scared about that.You would be incorrect. Do not allow this debate to get you angry your posts are starting to become based on personal things rather than the topic.

I think you feel that deep down without religion you would be a bad person. Guess what, you would be a good person, with or without religion.No i think i decide how i act. If it were not for religion i am not saying my actions would not have changed, but i do not know when or to what tandards.

Just like there are hot emo chicks and ugly emo chicks... it`s not the trend that makes them ugly or hot, it`s them.I very much agree. The individual does decide to act the way they feel appropriate. I say i am a better me because of Christianity. I now hold myself to something that has personal value to me, and makes me a better person.

 

[Zigurd]

But society only expects us to act according to its standard which only seems to be getting lowered. Do you think that people are as moral as they were 50 years ago, look no further than your television and let society guide you towards what is right or wrong. The more that society accepets out in the open amoung people the farther people will go behind the scenes and the trend continues to grow more and more into more wrong being accepted as mainstream as we are further descencitized.

People are more moral than they were 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Yes we are. There will be always violence, hatred, etc... it has been like that since the dawn of time. But things are getting better slowly. 50 years ago ? Black people were considered inferior, woman were not allowed to vote, etc... We are getting better. Descencitized does not mean we are shallow. I can see corpses and I don`t faint... but that does not mean I can kill without feeling regret.

Those extremists have no understanding of Gods word. Do you think these people would not have found a way to be violent without an excuse.

I agree, they have no idea what they are doing. They use religion as an excuse, or they twist it around to match their ideas.

Finally, it would be basically illogical to state that miracles cannot occur. This is because in order to logically state that miracles cannot occur, a person must either know all things in the universe so that he can rightfully state miracles cannot occur, or he must have some logical proof why miracles cannot occur, or possess a sufficiently sophisticated knowledgebase to conclude the miraculous cannot occur, etc. Furthermore, it is not enough to state that there is no evidence for the miraculous since a person's experiential base is limited. It may very well be that miracles have occurred and this person is simply not aware of it.

Just as it would be illogical to state that God is a giant space hamster. Copy paste everything you said to adapt to my statement.

If miracles happen, they should at least happen to people, and not to some rock in a distant galaxy. if they happen to people, we could have them documented.

How do you know what good it has caused when you only focus on the bad.. What if the good is individual. what if the good was no hugely historic event, but very life changing for millinons of individulas over all the years. You cannot simply disreguard the good because their is no picture book reference of every event. Your saying this is a personal conclusion. You can not measure a qualitative variable, so they cannot be weighed in comparison the way you are trying to. Thats like saying brown is better than silver.

I don`t care about personal achievement through religion when it is compared to the deaths of innocents. I don`t give a flying fuck if a priest saw the light, and then raped a kid. Even if every person who got religious, increased their quality of life by a 1000% it would not be enough to compensate for all the bad shit religion has done. Killing, torturing and raping people... religion needs to come with a cure for every disease in existence and it would be not even half way of redeeming itself.

What makes you think these things would not have happened by some other means?

No. Religious leaders invoked the killings and torturing. In the case of pedophile priests, I doubt they could get away with it being normal citizens. They are usually really pathetic and coward excuses of a human being. The robe gives them power.

I am going to need specifics here this is a very general statement.

Specifics on how religion still slows progress ?? There are religious groups that say evolutions is wrong, that science is wrong, basically they are teaching MILLIONS of children to be fucking zombies. Just watch those videos in youtube about the "jesus camp".

Religion is slowing progress by saying God created the universe. There is no evidence for this. Nor evidence for God existence.

You just said God does not intervene didnt you? Gods plan happens, people view things as being miralces or not.

I don`t buy into that "god has a plan for everybody"... it`s just an excuse. Excuses are for the weak.

So a baby is born without arms and legs... such is the work of god. Mysterious ways. Yeah... excuses excuses.

 

[Ironslave]

Throughout much of this post, I will discuss the similarities between Jesus, and our very own (ironically, also self proclaimed) savior, JornT. You will soon see that these two individuals have much more in common than you may initially think.

Then i would say that those people have horribly mis interpreted their doctrines of faith and have taken actions against it, some what to what the terrorists do to islam.

Misinterpreted or not, they do it because of their doctrine, and thats a fact. What makes their interpretation "wrong" anyways?

These people are WRONG! Jesus never said go out and force people to convert to my ways he said go out and spread the word so that every ear from every nation may hear. That does not entail forcing people to conversion BY ANY MEANS. Jesus never forced anyone to listen to His words, people were free to come and go as they pleased.

Jesus didn't have a problem with the Old Testament.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He actually did get pretty pissed off when people didn't listen to him, even condemning entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. What a dickhead, he reminds me of JornT in that regard. Like Jesus, JornT gets easily pissed off when someone doesn't listen to his advice.

11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

He even said people will go to hell just by not believing him! This is again, similar to JornT claiming that those who do not listen to him will be condemned to homosexuality.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jesus also encouraged self mutilation to those who sinned (apparently even looking at a woman is a sin), including recommending they cut out their eye and cut off their own hand. I can't cite specific examples, but I am fairly confident that many instances in the gospel of the MuscleMecca archives, JornT has also advocated self violence to those that disagree with him.

Matthew:5: 28-30.

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

JornT says those who don't listen to him can go to hell. Jesus says the same thing, literally.

Mark 15:15-16

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Just because you have problems acceting these things does not mean they did not happen.

I haven't seen pigs fly yet, does that mean it is possible too? Generally, to believe something, you have to prove it to be possible, not the contrary.

What explination do you give to miracles that have been documented on film, or that were on going on the person (ie Stigmatas: people having the wounds of Christ, mabye not all of them but the wounds on their hands and feet, or their head.) and some of these people have voulenteered to undergoes scientific review. The studies have shown no molecules that were not of the person. Their is no evidance of the body being harmed, the wounds just exsist. Meaning their was no proof of anything harming these people, but the wounds were still their. Science offers no explination for these things that happened, and they say exaclty that, their is no explination but they are definately in exsistance.

Says what, a biased documentary set out with an agenda to "prove" something (in this case, the legitimacy of Christianity)? Ben, you're a science major, yes? How is it scientifically possible that God somehow puts these marks on people representing the wounds of Christ. That's pathetic dude, are birth marks on the ass cheek a result of god also? Several historians claim that crucifixions were performed with nails through the wrist, and not the hands anyways, maybe these people faked wounds, such as Magdalena de la Cruz (1487–1560), who admitted the fraud. I don't know, theres TONS that science still needs to prove, but that is in no way a reason to jump to the conclusion to obviously attribute something to the same old white guy in the sky who millions upon millions of people have believed in because one book full of contradictions says so.

 

[Zigurd]

Why should i want to? So waht if i am a one in a trillion chance im here arent I. You want to honor yur life because you realize how precious it is? Well i would say i want to value my llife because God was loving enough to allow me to exsist. We both find amazing value in our exsistance why am I wrong for the way i have come to believe it. More importantly why do you want me to believe that your way is more valid than mine when in fact you have no proof, or reason as to why or how we came to exsist?

Wha is wrong with having a meaning that gives a person strength to over come things in their life and become better beacuse of it? That is kind of judgemental of you isnt it. Your mad because someone has given value to their experiences in life in a different way than you?

Any means in which a person get`s strength to overcome things that is based on something without proof or empirical value should not be used. Get strength from your family, friends, nature, anything... but not from your imaginary friends. That is a shallow source.

You have a vail over your eyes i dont have to look any further than directly in front of me to see Gods amazing glory in all his creation.

Why was it God ? And not my Giant space Hamster ?

I say that that "brain washing" as you call it occurs under your own merit. What is the iffernece for a person looking inside themsleves for a greater strength than to looking beyond themslevs both the person is capeable of doing at their own will. Reguardless of the "power coming form within or beyond is irrelevant if the person can call on it at will then it may be utilized as needed.

The difference is that looking for the strength in ourselves is a more permanent fix. Looking for it outside is a short term fix, from a psychological stand point.

Well you say you do those things because you call yourself to them. I say you do those things because of sociology.

Could be !! But sociology is there. Religion is based upon something with no proof of existance.

Science comes from mans discovery because we have the most complex brain on the planet. So to look where these achievemnets originated form we would have to look from where man came from.

Indeed. But why do we have to assume a God existed ? That seems like too much wishing, and too little seeking for the truth.

Im sure at some point sociology would come into play. Then you have to realize that i hung out on the streets for the first 19 yyears of my life, so inevitably you would get used.

Must have been rough, sorry to hear that.

Again i say this deals with your sociology and your up bringing.

Yes, society has made me want to be good. Ok, so what use religion has now ? If society does what religion is supposed to do. We don`t need religion. Society feels it`s roles very well.

You would be incorrect. Do not allow this debate to get you angry your posts are starting to become based on personal things rather than the topic.

No, It wasn`t an attack... I just wanted to see if my thoughts were right. Sorry if you felt attacked !

No i think i decide how i act. If it were not for religion i am not saying my actions would not have changed, but i do not know when or to what tandards.

Maybe your actions would not have changed at all. We`ll never know.

I very much agree. The individual does decide to act the way they feel appropriate. I say i am a better me because of Christianity. I now hold myself to something that has personal value to me, and makes me a better person.

I am glad you are a better person, but I don`t like how you became one.

I know fairies are false. But if I didn`t, and they would have helped me become a better person, would you not think there is less merit in it ? I would.

 

[Zigurd]

Ironslave, you man whore you !!! I was having a discussioooooon =,(

Now you come and interrupt it xD

Just kidding, I want to lick your face.

 

[BigBen]

People are more moral than they were 50, 100, 1000 years ago. Yes we are. There will be always violence, hatred, etc... it has been like that since the dawn of time. But things are getting better slowly. 50 years ago ? Black people were considered inferior, woman were not allowed to vote, etc... We are getting better. Descencitized does not mean we are shallow. I can see corpses and I don`t faint... but that does not mean I can kill without feeling regret.

Your talking of sociological accomplishmentsthat were brought about because of morals. Morals that were brought about by people who used the constitution as a back drop for their speeches. If you really want to know what your country was founded on then realize that its founders were Christian men who were being persecuted and realized that a change MUST take place.

Just as it would be illogical to state that God is a giant space hamster. Copy paste everything you said to adapt to my statement.

If miracles happen, they should at least happen to people, and not to some rock in a distant galaxy. if they happen to people, we could have them documented.
Youmissed the point of what i was saying. In order for you to say that miracles do not occur you have to jvae knowledge that mankind does not have and that is knowledge of all happenings in the universe.


I don`t care about personal achievement through religion when it is compared to the deaths of innocents. I don`t give a flying fuck if a priest saw the light, and then raped a kid. Even if every person who got religious, increased their quality of life by a 1000% it would not be enough to compensate for all the bad shit religion has done. Killing, torturing and raping people... religion needs to come with a cure for every disease in existence and it would be not even half way of redeeming itself.

again you misinterpreted what i was saying. You were assuming i was speaking of the same person doing the good and the bad. I was saying that seperate good events could be happeneing in just as great numbers and probably are amoung the communities of churches to equal the bad events.

No. Religious leaders invoked the killings and torturing. In the case of pedophile priests, I doubt they could get away with it being normal citizens. They are usually really pathetic and coward excuses of a human being. The robe gives them power.

So your telling me these people could not sit in a park and obduct a child? I understand your point. I am not making excuses for these people but i am saying that their Christianity did not push them into these things it was their person coice to take a trust and abuse it. That is their own fault. Where in the bible does it say to rape kids? It does not.

Specifics on how religion still slows progress ?? There are religious groups that say evolutions is wrong, that science is wrong, basically they are teaching MILLIONS of children to be fucking zombies. Just watch those videos in youtube about the "jesus camp".That would actually go against Christianity. I am not saying that it does not hapen but i am saying t is wrong. Why would we keep ourselves uneducated and simple. I am christian and i study chemestry and dietetics in college. I very much believ in the things i am learning and the way they work, but i have yet to learn anything that has disproved the exsistance of God in my text books. I still say that "evolution" is merely adaptation. Evolution of one speices turning into a completely different species does not exsist. The only proof of evolution we have is the proof of evolution with in species no intellegent person can deny that.

Religion is slowing progress by saying God created the universe. There is no evidence for this. Nor evidence for God existence.Their is no evidance for proof of any other hypothesis of how the universe began. If you dont believe in intellegant design you either believ in darwin or the big bang theory(which requires evolution, which we have NO proof of in the way we would need proof of it for this to be true, or a theory that requires a prime mover to begin the process of life) Your making decisions on things that you dont know al the facts to yet.



I don`t buy into that "god has a plan for everybody"... it`s just an excuse. Excuses are for the weak.
What?
So a baby is born without arms and legs... such is the work of god. Mysterious ways. Yeah... excuses excuses.again what?

 

[Zigurd]

Your talking of sociological accomplishmentsthat were brought about because of morals. Morals that were brought about by people who used the constitution as a back drop for their speeches. If you really want to know what your country was founded on then realize that its founders were Christian men who were being persecuted and realized that a change MUST take place.

I don`t live in America. BAZING.

Youmissed the point of what i was saying. In order for you to say that miracles do not occur you have to jvae knowledge that mankind does not have and that is knowledge of all happenings in the universe.

I didn`t miss your point. But it is IMPOSSIBLE, for a miracle to go unnoticed at this time and moment. If a person regains an arm, it will be on the news right now. People are eager to back up their believes with anything, because at least subconsciously they have doubts.

again you misinterpreted what i was saying. You were assuming i was speaking of the same person doing the good and the bad. I was saying that seperate good events could be happeneing in just as great numbers and probably are amoung the communities of churches to equal the bad events.

No, I did not misinterpreted you. It`s just that I don`t care if 300 people did good, for every guy who tortured. It`s still not balanced.

So your telling me these people could not sit in a park and obduct a child? I understand your point. I am not making excuses for these people but i am saying that their Christianity did not push them into these things it was their person coice to take a trust and abuse it. That is their own fault. Where in the bible does it say to rape kids? It does not.

No, priests are fucking cowards (the ones that rape). These guys are so pathetic and scared that they start raping kids usually after YEARS of getting the courage to do it. Without the silence of a confession chamber, they would probably never get to do it. They are "coward pedophiles" meaning they would almost never get to actually rape one, only in extremely good conditions.

That would actually go against Christianity. I am not saying that it does not hapen but i am saying t is wrong. Why would we keep ourselves uneducated and simple. I am christian and i study chemestry and dietetics in college. I very much believ in the things i am learning and the way they work, but i have yet to learn anything that has disproved the exsistance of God in my text books. I still say that "evolution" is merely adaptation. Evolution of one speices turning into a completely different species does not exsist. The only proof of evolution we have is the proof of evolution with in species no intellegent person can deny that.

Thank society for the fact you are able to study chymestry!! There was a time in which religion would have killed you for believing in such heresy. They would have told you that everything is made by God, and thunders come when he is angry, and rain when he is sad, and more bullshit.

And you will never find something that goes against the existence of God, nobody is doing research on how to disprove the inexistent. And also, the lack of evidence for it`s inexistence is not evidence fot it`s existence.

The only proof of evolution ? Evolution is backed up by DNA research now. That means evolution of one species, into another species is possible, and did happen.

Their is no evidance for proof of any other hypothesis of how the universe began. If you dont believe in intellegant design you either believ in darwin or the big bang theory(which requires evolution, which we have NO proof of in the way we would need proof of it for this to be true, or a theory that requires a prime mover to begin the process of life) Your making decisions on things that you dont know al the facts to yet.

I agree !! There is no solid evidence for how the universe began right now ! BUT WE ARE WORKING TO FIND SOMETHING INSTEAD OF SAYING "THIS MADE IT" and then feeling accomplished, happy and stupid.

When the Large Hadron Collider get`s working, we will see if Higgs particles exist. Then, the string theory would charge to the sky ! And we would be really close to find an actual solution to the question of how the universe began.

The difference between science and religion: Science works to find the truth, religion chooses a convenient truth and then goes along it.

What?

I am just amazed at how anything good is work of God, and anything bad is just his mysterious work.

How God seems to be able to save a baby, but not another baby. Seems more like chance than divine work.

 

[BigBen]

This will be my last reply for the evening because i need to go to bed.

Throughout much of this post, I will discuss the similarities between Jesus, and our very own (ironically, also self proclaimed) savior, JornT. You will soon see that these two individuals have much more in common than you may initially think.





Misinterpreted or not, they do it because of their doctrine, and thats a fact. What makes their interpretation "wrong" anyways?

If you read the bible, and you think violance should be a path you take, you are wrong. That is not what Jesus is about. You are wrong, simply put. Thatd be like saying 2+2=7


Jesus didn't have a problem with the Old Testament.

The prophecies were about Jesus, the law was the 10 commandments, none of this involved violance.

He actually did get pretty pissed off when people didn't listen to him, even condemning entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. What a dickhead, he reminds me of JornT in that regard. Like Jesus, JornT gets easily pissed off when someone doesn't listen to his advice.

Actually Jesus was warning these people of how seriously wrong their actions were. Their was no ange in His words just pity and sorrow that these people did not change their ways when the truth was presented to them. See you are making the mistake of interpreting the bible yourself, and you are doing it incorrectly.

He even said people will go to hell just by not believing him! This is again, similar to JornT claiming that those who do not listen to him will be condemned to homosexuality.

AGAIN, after i constantly told you taht these snips of scripture are misrepresenting Jesus words. You have to understand that Jesus is the way to God the father, if you do not believe in Jesus their is NO way to God. So Jesus is correct in saying if you do not believe in Gods covenant with man then you are choosing a lifestyle with out God.

Jesus also encouraged self mutilation to those who sinned (apparently even looking at a woman is a sin), including recommending they cut out their eye and cut off their own hand. I can't cite specific examples, but I am fairly confident that many instances in the gospel of the MuscleMecca archives, JornT has also advocated self violence to those that disagree with him.

That is a metaphore to highlight the seriousness of sin. You again are wrong in your interpretation. To say that if something makes you sin you are better off with out than with it if it makes you do evil. Ironslave i am surprised at this post, its very nieve.

JornT says those who don't listen to him can go to hell. Jesus says the same thing, literally.


Jorn T is not the son of God.



I haven't seen pigs fly yet, does that mean it is possible too? Generally, to believe something, you have to prove it to be possible, not the contrary.



Says what, a biased documentary set out with an agenda to "prove" something (in this case, the legitimacy of Christianity)? Ben, you're a science major, yes? How is it scientifically possible that God somehow puts these marks on people representing the wounds of Christ. That's pathetic dude, are birth marks on the ass cheek a result of god also? Several historians claim that crucifixions were performed with nails through the wrist, and not the hands anyways, maybe these people faked wounds, such as Magdalena de la Cruz (1487–1560), who admitted the fraud. I don't know, theres TONS that science still needs to prove, but that is in no way a reason to jump to the conclusion to obviously attribute something to the same old white guy in the sky who millions upon millions of people have believed in because one book full of contradictions says so.
Yes i am a science major. I dont know. I also dont know a lot of things work the way that they do, but they do. I know i have seen documented films that are just presenting events. FOr instance, Their is a home film of a woman recieveing her first communion, and the host literially turned into blood and flesh in her mouth. I wathced the lady open her empty mouth and put the host in it. Then i watched her walk back to her seat and open her mouth, (when the interviewed her she opened her mouth to ask her friend what was on her tounge bc she tasted iron) her friend who was filming this filmed blookd and flesh in this womans mouth. How do i explain that. I have NO IDEA but it happened.

 

[BigBen]

Any means in which a person get`s strength to overcome things that is based on something without proof or empirical value should not be used. Get strength from your family, friends, nature, anything... but not from your imaginary friends. That is a shallow source.

What makes the source shallow if i get more strength from something i beleive in than if you get from things directly in front of you. It sounds like my source works just fine.

Why was it God ? And not my Giant space Hamster ?
because a giant space hammer does not have 1000's of years of prophecy and fullfillment backing it. It does not have legitemacy. read through the thread to read why the bible is legit, i am tired of answering this question.


The difference is that looking for the strength in ourselves is a more permanent fix. Looking for it outside is a short term fix, from a psychological stand point.

How do u figure? I look for strength by realying n God and the laws of nature so did Henery Ford, he was a multi billionare, dos not seem to short term for me. Your replys are becoming short less educated and more and more into a i am correct and you are not type of thing.

Could be !! But sociology is there. Religion is based upon something with no proof of existance.
Are u serious?


Indeed. But why do we have to assume a God existed ? That seems like too much wishing, and too little seeking for the truth.

We do not have to assume God exsists, but we as a scientific community can not blatently ignore the possiblility of an intellegent creator. Now you are just being anti God(anti intellegent design) which has no merit other than person opinion becaus etheir is no scientific proof that thier is no intellegent creator, scientifically we do not know.

Must have been rough, sorry to hear that.

Not really i would not change my life for anything, i LOVE my life.

Yes, society has made me want to be good. Ok, so what use religion has now ? If society does what religion is supposed to do. We don`t need religion. Society feels it`s roles very well.

society does not even come close to doing what religion does that like comparing Steak to a dog turd and the steak of morality is the correct interpretation of the BIble, or buddism, or Islam which do not have the legiteacy of the bible.

No, It wasn`t an attack... I just wanted to see if my thoughts were right. Sorry if you felt attacked !



Maybe your actions would not have changed at all. We`ll never know.



I am glad you are a better person, but I don`t like how you became one.
No offense but that does not really matter in the spectrum of things, if that mattered then i would have to really care abut what everyone thinks of me and thats just silly. Opinions are the cheapest asset a person has and everybody wants to give them away.
I know fairies are false. But if I didn`t, and they would have helped me become a better person, would you not think there is less merit in it ? I would.

The comparison of my faith to faries is disrespectful. It is also not a comparison at all. You dont know any of the facts about the legitimacy of the texts of the bible, therefore you can not begin to take what is inside of these texts as being legitimate becuse the dates hold true, and the odds of these these happening are astronomical.



Gentleman this has been a fabulous debate. Please feel free to add any commenst you wish. I feel that i have spent a fair amout of time in thsi thread. I do not want to continue posting in here any more becaus ei feel like i am constantly repeating my self and arguing in circles. As always i reall do enjoy these threads buti do not think their is a lot more to ffer than for me to suggest if you want answers to these questions to get a spiritual advisor and have someone who is qualified to answer your questions. I start summer school next week so my free time will again be limited.

Have a fanstatic week.

God Bless
Benjamin

 

[Zigurd]

Jorn T is not the son of God.

Prove he is not. I bet that if we can get enough people to believe in it, write a fiction book about it and back it up with yet to be proved scientific facts, we could start our own JornT religion !

That`s how religions are born. Just look at Scientology, it`s the same as your religion, why dismiss is ? Because of it`s crazy ideas ? I don`t find an Alien overlord any different than a Zombie Jewish guy who turn water into wine. Both sound like science fiction novels to me.

All religions are based on crazy stuff that nobody can refute, which leaves room for people to believe in it.

 

[Zigurd]

Good night man ! Take care !