Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century Elimination Thread

[lifterdead]

I was inspired by Ironslave's top ten list to make an elimination thread for it. Obviously, I can't satisfy everyone with my choices, but I had to choose, lest we argue forever about who to include.

Every time you vote, it must be 1 postive point and one negative point or 2 negative points. No more 2 positives.
You can only vote again after 2 people after you vote.
You must copy the updated list into your post, or your vote does not count. Under the list, please note what changes you've made, or once again, it doesn't count.
Max 25 points for 1 person. Once someone is eliminated, they can't be brought back in the game, and they are removed from the list.
Check the most recent vote by a member to see the current standings.

Here we go:

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 25
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 25
Michael Johnson 25
Pele 25

 

[Ironslave]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 25
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 24
Michael Johnson 24
Pele 25

-1 Michael Johnson
-1 Bo Jackson

 

[lifterdead]

wow...... no one likes this thread idea?

elimination thread -2

 

[Duality]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 24
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 24
Michael Johnson 25
Pele 25

Micheal Johnson +1 babe ruth -1


and i think it's a great thread idea lifterdead. give people time they'll vote

 

[Ironslave]

Michael Johnson over Babe Ruth

-2 Duality


......

I'll post more when other people do.

 

[Duality]

Michael Johnson over Babe Ruth

-2 Duality


......

I'll post more when other people do.

i have very little respect in terms of athletic ability for baseball players and golfers. golf shouldn't even be considered a sport if horseshoe and shuffleboard isn't and some of baseball's best players (david ortiz, curt schilling, one of the Tiger's best pitchers, etc.) are in very poor shape if not just plain fat. the NFL, NBA, and track and field have produced and are home to the world's most elite and greatest athletes.

one can be considered great in baseball if they are a terrific hitter. it is very one dimensional (this is more or less why ruth is considered a great, correct?). they can be out of shape, not play defense, yet they are a great athlete? (designated hitters are an absolute joke). an athlete MUST be multifaceted in their ability to perform if they are to be considered one of the greatest ever. a basketball player must be able to shoot, dribble, and defend all while carrying an immense cardiovascular condition. they must be very athletic as well, and if not, they carry another physical trait that allows them to perform (such as height).

an NFL player, whether it be offense or defense, must be at peak physical condition and carry with them blinding speed or brute physical ability, if not both. they are machines and on top of those physical assets they must have near flawless coordination (i'm only speaking of skill posistions).

sprinters are similar except they don't carry such physical ability in terms of strength, however they are remarkable in that they show what the human body is capable of in terms of just raw athletic ability.

 

[Ironslave]

i have very little respect in terms of athletic ability for baseball players and golfers. golf shouldn't even be considered a sport if horseshoe and shuffleboard isn't and some of baseball's best players (david ortiz, curt schilling, one of the Tiger's best pitchers, etc.) are in very poor shape if not just plain fat. the NFL, NBA, and track and field have produced and are home to the world's most elite and greatest athletes.

one can be considered great in baseball if they are a terrific hitter. it is very one dimensional (this is more or less why ruth is considered a great, correct?). they can be out of shape, not play defense, yet they are a great athlete? (designated hitters are an absolute joke). a basketball player must be able to shoot, dribble, and defend all while carrying an immense cardiovascular condition. they must be very athletic as well, and if not, they carry another physical trait that allows them to perform (such as height).

an NFL player, whether it be offense or defense, must be at peak physical condition and carry with them blinding speed or brute physical ability, if not both. they are machines and on top of those physical assets they must have near flawless coordination (i'm only speaking of skill posistions).

sprinters are similar except they don't carry such physical ability in terms of strength, however they are remarkable in that they show what the human body is capable of in terms of just raw athletic ability.

We have different criteria I guess, when I consider who is the greatest athlete I can't help but think of the impact they had on a larger scale. I think the problem with just revolving it on pure athletic ability is that by that definition, the decathalete would be the best athlete in the world every year. Then also you have to consider co-ordination and skill, which brings in a sport like hockey, as opposed to just brute gross motor movements.

I think the thing to keep in mind with athletes like baseball players and golfers is that for their sport that they choose, they don't need to be able to lift 500 lbs or run a mile in 4 minutes. Instead, they spend their time practicing to hit a tiny little ball, which is very complex. I don't think this makes them less of an athlete, because this is the sport they choose.

 

[Duality]

We have different criteria I guess, when I consider who is the greatest athlete I can't help but think of the impact they had on a larger scale. I think the problem with just revolving it on pure athletic ability is that by that definition, the decathalete would be the best athlete in the world every year. Then also you have to consider co-ordination and skill, which brings in a sport like hockey, as opposed to just brute gross motor movements.

I think the thing to keep in mind with athletes like baseball players and golfers is that for their sport that they choose, they don't need to be able to lift 500 lbs or run a mile in 4 minutes. Instead, they spend their time practicing to hit a tiny little ball, which is very complex. I don't think this makes them less of an athlete, because this is the sport they choose.

your right it comes down to what your criteria is. but my point being the quarterback in the NFL and the point guard in the NBA must be able to handle that "ball" with immense precision and accuracy just like the hitter/pitcher in the MLB or the player in the PGA. however the NBA and NFL player ALSO must have superior athletic ability and be in peak cardiovascular shape ON TOP of the ability to handle that "ball". this is what makes them superior.

all sports are not created equal. the physcial demands of a football player are 10X that of a baseball player. if Tiger Woods chose golf as his hobby that's fine, but he will never be half the overall athlete Kobe Bryant is. just because your the best at your craft doesn't make you one of the best ever.

 

[lifterdead]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 24
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 22
Michael Johnson 25
Pele 25

-2 Bo Jackson

 

[Line]

one can be considered great in baseball if they are a terrific hitter. it is very one dimensional (this is more or less why ruth is considered a great, correct?)

He'd be considered one of the greatest pitchers of all time if he hadn't stopped earlier in his career only to become the greatest hitter of all time. I think your lack of understanding on both golf and baseball is cause for your doubts of them as athletes and that's fine but it's a bit perspectivist; superficially at that. You're also missing a large era gap and what exactly a 162 (144 in Ruth's days) game season does to the body whether it's perceived as a physically taxing individual effort or not.

an NFL player, whether it be offense or defense, must be at peak physical condition and carry with them blinding speed or brute physical ability, if not both. they are machines and on top of those physical assets they must have near flawless coordination (i'm only speaking of skill posistions).

I think you'd be shocked at the speed required to play baseball, particularly that of outfielders and middle infielders. Their ability to react as timely and cover the ground necessary to play their sport at such a high level is clearly being ignored or misrepresented. When a baseball is hit, everyone on the field moves. There's a fluidity to the game that's commonly over-sighted when talking about the pure athleticism of its participants. Also, the "flawless coordination" methinks is more applicable to that of a baseball player, than your average NFL player. Despite their remarkable cardiovascular achievements for their size, linemen aren't necessarily the most awe-inspiring physical specimen's themselves but I will concede that they're far more hard-thinking than given credit for though this doesn't supercede the working intelligence of ballplayers in my opinion.

 

[Duality]

He'd be considered one of the greatest pitchers of all time if he hadn't stopped earlier in his career only to become the greatest hitter of all time. I think your lack of understanding on both golf and baseball is cause for your doubts of them as athletes and that's fine but it's a bit perspectivist; superficially at that. You're also missing a large era gap and what exactly a 162 (144 in Ruth's days) game season does to the body whether it's perceived as a physically taxing individual effort or not.

your right i do know much more about the NBA and NFL than i do baseball or golf. but i think it speaks for how "intense" and "physically demanding" the sport is if they can play a whole 162 games, don't you? i mean football is only 16 and basketball's 82 is about half as much. i'm not saying that the players aren't drained at the end of game 162 but the fact they can even play that many shows in my mind how physically it does not require that much.

 

[Duality]

I think you'd be shocked at the speed required to play baseball, particularly that of outfielders and middle infielders. Their ability to react as timely and cover the ground necessary to play their sport at such a high level is clearly being ignored or misrepresented. When a baseball is hit, everyone on the field moves. There's a fluidity to the game that's commonly over-sighted when talking about the pure athleticism of its participants. Also, the "flawless coordination" methinks is more applicable to that of a baseball player, than your average NFL player. Despite their remarkable cardiovascular achievements for their size, linemen aren't necessarily the most awe-inspiring physical specimen's themselves but I will concede that they're far more hard-thinking than given credit for though this doesn't supercede the working intelligence of ballplayers in my opinion.

you know i again agree with you. someone like kenny lofton in his prime was a phenominal athlete. but can you name me who history says are the best baseball players ever? again i'm not a huge baseball history guy but for the most part, all of them will be on that list for their hitting ability, and really nothing more. correct if i'm wrong and i mean that i would be interested to know.

example: ray allen is an amazing shooter, one of the best in the history of the game at free throw percentage and 3 pt field goal %. however, he doesn't have a chance at making it into the hall of fame. he has never won a championship, is not a great defensive player, and beyond his scoring ability, has no real accolades. he is just a great shooter. now barry bonds is considered one of the if not the best baseball players ever, but all he has really accomplished is his home run mark, and hasn't even won a world series. he's just a great hitter. do you see what i'm getting at here? he has mastered only one ability and is viewed as superior. someone like Jordan was the ultimate all incompassing player, not only did he win titles, but he was almost indisputededly the best scorer, defender, and athlete in the NBA. someone like Ruth or Bonds are considered the greatest in their craft only for their hitting ability, which by itself requires very little in terms of athletic ability, just a lot of practice and coordination (akin to learning the guitar) with some athletic ability required to hit the ball a given distance. not what i would call a "great athlete" let alone one of the greatest ever.

 

[Line]

your right i do know much more about the NBA and NFL than i do baseball or golf. but i think it speaks for how "intense" and "physically demanding" the sport is if they can play a whole 162 games, don't you? i mean football is only 16 and basketball's 82 is about half as much. i'm not saying that the players aren't drained at the end of game 162 but the fact they can even play that many shows in my mind how physically it does not require that much.

It's completely different. I've played pretty much everything growing up but baseball was easily my specialty. There's an initial intensity and strain put on the body after something as combative as football but that is not going to appear in baseball. However, the latter is a much more wear-and-tear kind of sport where nagging injuries are far more prevalent, especially when there's such little opportunity to rest. The summer heat doesn't really do the players any favors either but I digress. The point is, you seem to be favoring contact sports, which is fine, but what is sustained in a football tackle is a different stressor than playing infield with a sore back or sliding on raspberries.

 

[Duality]

It's completely different. I've played pretty much everything growing up but baseball was easily my specialty. There's an initial intensity and strain put on the body after something as combative as football but that is not going to appear in baseball. However, the latter is a much more wear-and-tear kind of sport where nagging injuries are far more prevalent, especially when there's such little opportunity to rest. The summer heat doesn't really do the players any favors either but I digress. The point is, you seem to be favoring contact sports, which is fine, but what is sustained in a football tackle is a different stressor than playing infield with a sore back or sliding on raspberries.

i see what your saying. i'm not saying the sports don't have their injuries and at times are difficult to play. but it is more the ability one must posses to play that sport at a high level that i am addressing.

what are your thoughts on the post i made right before you made this one^

 

[Braaq]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 24
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 22
Michael Johnson 23
Pele 25

-2 Michael Johnson

Why are we arguing about who should be on the list or not? This happens everytime, if you do not like this list then do not participate or make your own list for an elimination game. This is Lifterhead's list and so let it be as it is

 

[Duality]

^^ why does everything have to be an arguement? the exchange line and I are having is perfectly applicable here. if you don't want to join in just vote and move on. :io:

 

[Line]

now barry bonds is considered one of the if not the best baseball players ever, but all he has really accomplished is his home run mark, and hasn't even won a world series. do you see what i'm getting at here? he has mastered only one ability and is viewed as superior.

Bond's other career stats exceed that of his home run total as far as impressive feats are concerned, though the importance of said title is large due to the general public's ability to grasp such a "simple" statistic. It should be noted that Barry Bonds has a total of 762 HR's and 514 stolen bases (SB). This puts him in what is considered the 500-500 club where he is the only member. It also should be noted that no one else in the history of professional baseball has even entered the 400-400 club; only 6 are in the 300-300 club. I could get into his slugging percentages and whatnot but I don't really want to drag this out.

someone like Jordan was the ultimate all incompassing player, not only did he win titles, but he was almost indisputededly the best scorer, defender, and athlete in the NBA.

We're also talking about Jordan in comparison to Bonds, the former being the all-but-undisputed best at his sport. I notice you mention Ruth below so I'll touch on that in a second.

someone like Ruth or Bonds are considered the greatest in their craft only for their hitting ability, which by itself requires very little in terms of athletic ability, just a lot of practice and coordination (akin to learning the guitar) with some athletic ability required to hit the ball a given distance.

Hitting a baseball at a professional level is so much more physically demanding than you're crediting it for but again I chalk that up to your lack of understanding for the sport so I won't nit-pick. To say it requires "very little in terms of athletic ability" is grossly erroneous, though I do consider myself as someone with a great understanding of the baseball swing. Regardless, I think you're missing the importance of Ruth and his accomplishments. The man hit 714 home runs in his career when parks we're as long, if not longer, than that of their modern counterparts, and without other technological breakthroughs that we've had including nutrition, training, bat and ball modification, etcetera (this list truly is endless). There were times when he had hit more home runs in a season than entire teams and his slugging percentage (the amount of bases you accumulate per at bat, a widely overlooked statistic) is still the highest of all time (though Bonds holds the single-season record). Speaking of single season accomplishments, Ruth still holds the record for total bases in a season and this was back when they played 18 less games. Bonds holds the record for both on base percentage and OPS (on base plus slugging) which is basically the new statistical litmus test for great offensive production. As I mentioned above, and Ruth's total bases record follows suit with this, Bonds was an incredible runner in his earlier days and both men did incredible things akin to scoring after the ball was struck. This is traditionally where running comes into play.

 

[Duality]

Bond's other career stats exceed that of his home run total as far as impressive feats are concerned, though the importance of said title is large due to the general public's ability to grasp such a "simple" statistic. It should be noted that Barry Bonds has a total of 762 HR's and 514 stolen bases (SB). This puts him in what is considered the 500-500 club where he is the only member. It also should be noted that no one else in the history of professional baseball has even entered the 400-400 club; only 6 are in the 300-300 club. I could get into his slugging percentages and whatnot but I don't really want to drag this out.

We're also talking about Jordan in comparison to Bonds, the former being the all-but-undisputed best at his sport. I notice you mention Ruth below so I'll touch on that in a second.

Hitting a baseball at a professional level is so much more physically demanding than you're crediting it for but again I chalk that up to your lack of understanding for the sport so I won't nit-pick. To say it requires "very little in terms of athletic ability" is grossly erroneous, though I do consider myself as someone with a great understanding of the baseball swing. Regardless, I think you're missing the importance of Ruth and his accomplishments. The man hit 714 home runs in his career when parks we're as long, if not longer, than that of their modern counterparts, and without other technological breakthroughs that we've had including nutrition, training, bat and ball modification, etcetera (this list truly is endless). There were times when he had hit more home runs in a season than entire teams and his slugging percentage (the amount of bases you accumulate per at bat, a widely overlooked statistic) is still the highest of all time (though Bonds holds the single-season record). Speaking of single season accomplishments, Ruth still holds the record for total bases in a season and this was back when they played 18 less games. Bonds holds the record for both on base percentage and OPS (on base plus slugging) which is basically the new statistical litmus test for great offensive production. As I mentioned above, and Ruth's total bases record follows suit with this, Bonds was an incredible runner in his earlier days and both men did incredible things akin to scoring after the ball was struck. This is traditionally where running comes into play.

these are very good points. i think the main issue that devalidates my arguemnt against baseball is the fact i have never played it nor do i take much interest in it in terms of it's history. it's hard to effectively knock what one does having never put yourself in their shoes. i think more or less (like Ironslave said) this comes down to an issue of criteria. i personally find the awe inspiring ability of Jordan or the unbeatable combination of strength and speed barry sanders possesed far more impressive and worthy of the "greatest athlete ever" title than someone like Ruth .

but thanks for the info in regards to baseball it was a great read. but one thing i noticed, you never touched on the matter of golf deserving to be a sport.....did you agree with me or just not address it?

 

[skid9832004]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 22
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 22
Michael Johnson 23
Pele 25




-2 babe ruth

 

[Rageking]

Jim Brown 25
Eddie Merckx 25
Muhammad Ali 25
Jesse Owens 25
Babe Ruth 22
Jim Thorpe 25
Wayne Gretzky 25
Tiger Woods 25
Michael Jordan 25
Lance Armstrong 25
Bo Jackson 22
Michael Johnson 21
Pele 25

-2 michael johnson



-2 duality for busting on golf. when you shoot a 72, or even a 90, then you can say its easy