HIT styles: Dorian VS Mentzer

[PistolPete]

Tim this is stupid, let's stop arguing over this. Your thick, and so am I. Were not going to see eye to eye on this.

First off, HIT's main point is not JUST to go to failure. I think it's kind of naive of you to think that HIT training is just about going to failure. look at any log on here that trains to HIT style. They've been using progressive weights. enough said.

secondly, I think it's safe to say that on these boards, were all referring to bodybuilding. Not just weight lifting and other athletics. We don't care too much about not being able to perform other tasks at 100% percent at the cost of having a great lift.

Next point. I wouldn't train twice a week on HIT. I would train 3-4 times a week. So really, I have just as many opportunities to progress, as long as your not training twice a week.

Also, a lot of HIT trainers don't actually take the compound movements to absolute failure. Dorian Yates described that he did a lot of his compound movements by going to just before failure, having maybe enough energy to do maybe one more rep. He did this to prevent injury. I know he had a fair a mount of injuries, but if not for this, he probably would have had even more. Watch blood and guts. You can clearly see on his incline press, deadlifts, and BB rows, he might have been able to eek out another rep or two on every exercise. The whole idea though was that he used his maximum weight, in the set amount of reps 6-8. After that was stimulated to the max or near to it progressively, he didn't need to do anymore.

Also, yates didn't train with two working sets for very long. I think in his last 3 Olympia wins he trained with only 1 set to failure.

Finally, I too find it odd that the HIT trainers find they're training different, then most other conventional volume training. I can see why you think this, because after all the warmups it really just looks like any other kind of training. But really, HIT is a mind set. And I believe that training and power has so much to do with the power of your deep thoughts, drive, passion, visualization, etc. HIT trainers understand that the last set is the most important, and that final bout with the heaviest weight, with the most effort you've literally ever put into that exercise at that time is where you grow. That single focus, is what seperates us from other trainers.

 

[Natzo]

what a great post pete!

thanks.

 

[Beau]

I always find it a bit funny when someone blindly defends some "training style" or calls it "shitty".Study,experience and find the best exercises,reps,sets whatever that works for you.Every one is individual.If your buddy has founded a program that made him gain 5lbs a mucle in a month ,its very unlike youll get the same results.
I happy to hear about your results Pete,but if in the end of the day HIT doesnt work for,dont call it waste of time ,but rather journey to knowing more about your body.

Exactly...I've been using dorian's style with great success. You can link references/studies all you want but results don't lie. I've tried numerous programs over the years and i've made my best gains with this style training. Its all a learning experience, live and learn. Gotta try different shit to know what works for you and what doesn't.

 

[tim290280]

Tim this is stupid, let's stop arguing over this. Your thick, and so am I. Were not going to see eye to eye on this.

I'm thick? :bball:

First off, HIT's main point is not JUST to go to failure. I think it's kind of naive of you to think that HIT training is just about going to failure. look at any log on here that trains to HIT style. They've been using progressive weights. enough said.

Have you actually read Arthur Jones' work? HIT was all about taking the muscle to failure with as little work as possible per muscle. Progression is what every exercise program is about (or should be at least), so progression is not unique nor is it a cornerstone of HIT.

secondly, I think it's safe to say that on these boards, were all referring to bodybuilding. Not just weight lifting and other athletics. We don't care too much about not being able to perform other tasks at 100% percent at the cost of having a great lift.

You will realise soon enough that BBing and being able to integrate it into life are very important. For a busy person with little training time HIT can fit this bill. But it also means that they don't gain the benefits of being fitter etc. Fitness and work capacity has also been shown to be linked to peoples ability to progress and get bigger and stronger. I've even experienced this personally. You can't write off conditioning and life as it relates to BBing. I can tell you now that if you have to be able to concentrate at work but you have just beat your body into the ground you will be unproductive and lose your job. If you have to be active at work but you are sore or physically tired from training, then you could get injured, or not be able to work properly, and this will not be good for your future employment prospects.

Seriously; you can't write this point off as unimportant. Unless you are a paid professional then life will often have to take priority.

Next point. I wouldn't train twice a week on HIT. I would train 3-4 times a week. So really, I have just as many opportunities to progress, as long as your not training twice a week.

So you are, by HIT philosophy, headed for overtraining. You're overreaching in every workout which will catch up with you very quickly.

Also, a lot of HIT trainers don't actually take the compound movements to absolute failure. Dorian Yates described that he did a lot of his compound movements by going to just before failure, having maybe enough energy to do maybe one more rep. He did this to prevent injury. I know he had a fair a mount of injuries, but if not for this, he probably would have had even more. Watch blood and guts. You can clearly see on his incline press, deadlifts, and BB rows, he might have been able to eek out another rep or two on every exercise. The whole idea though was that he used his maximum weight, in the set amount of reps 6-8. After that was stimulated to the max or near to it progressively, he didn't need to do anymore.

So what you are saying is that you train like a normal person, not HIT. Please don't think that you train HIT if you don't.

Also, yates didn't train with two working sets for very long. I think in his last 3 Olympia wins he trained with only 1 set to failure.

What am I; his biographer? He also used to train volume too. I was citing what he proports to work well.

Finally, I too find it odd that the HIT trainers find they're training different, then most other conventional volume training. I can see why you think this, because after all the warmups it really just looks like any other kind of training. But really, HIT is a mind set. And I believe that training and power has so much to do with the power of your deep thoughts, drive, passion, visualization, etc. HIT trainers understand that the last set is the most important, and that final bout with the heaviest weight, with the most effort you've literally ever put into that exercise at that time is where you grow. That single focus, is what seperates us from other trainers.

HIT isn't a mind set.

Go and read Arthur Jones' essays on training. Read Darden's work too. I like Stuart McRoberts take on it too. Aside from the psuedoscience of the writings they actually put together a pretty decent understanding of training.

Exactly...I've been using dorian's style with great success. You can link references/studies all you want but results don't lie. I've tried numerous programs over the years and i've made my best gains with this style training. Its all a learning experience, live and learn. Gotta try different shit to know what works for you and what doesn't.

Yes we'd all be better off without science. We could still live in caves and starve to death, believing the world is flat and that all things happen by magic or divine intervention.

 

[skindnef]

 

[Duality]

HIT as described by Arthur Jones and Mentzer is one set to failure. So any one exercise is only one set.

Others such as Yates and Stuart McGill liked 2-3 work sets per exercise.

But this is also coupled with only a couple of workouts a week, only short sessions (30mins usually), and only a couple of exercises per body part. Usually full body as well, but not necessarily.

Of course the hipocrasy of this entire field is that there are "warmup" sets. So a lot of the HIT crap that gets bandied around often ends up with programs that are actually pretty similar to splits in execution. This is because they will have a short session, but many days training, and then have several sets leading to their top set that is the only one they count. It really is stupid how diverse the HIT crowd is given their rabid dogmatic approach.

i guess i am more of the dorian style of HIT then. but the difference lays, as you said, in what really counts as a "set". i don't count warmups as sets. i think of them as injury prevention. they aren't sets that are going to induce hypertrophy nor am i executing them with maximal effort. that's what i deem a set to be, a bout of maximal effort in any given movement.

i really don't think you have a problem with HIT, i think you have a problem with people thinking they are following HIT exactly or that their training is different than others when it really isn't that differnt. i could be wrong but by the tone of your posts your disdain seems to be pointed at the people who blindly follow HIT rather than HIT itself

 

[skindnef]

i really don't think you have a problem with HIT, i think you have a problem with people thinking they are following HIT exactly or that their training is different than others when it really isn't that differnt. i could be wrong but by the tone of your posts your disdain seems to be pointed at the people who blindly follow HIT rather than HIT itself

Well said man. That's what I thought too.

 

[tim290280]

i really don't think you have a problem with HIT, i think you have a problem with people thinking they are following HIT exactly or that their training is different than others when it really isn't that differnt. i could be wrong but by the tone of your posts your disdain seems to be pointed at the people who blindly follow HIT rather than HIT itself

Pretty much.

Gotta remember I spent a couple of years training in this style. I don't mind it, I posted a number of PB's doing it. But, as I said, I wouldn't go back to that style unless I was seriously pressed for training time (kids+job+work+hobbies that could happen in the future). So I've read all the various texts on HIT, read the science, and I've come out the other side. It isn't the best way to train, but it does work.

The best thing I took away from HIT style was knowing how to push myself hard. The worst thing about it was I was deathly unfit by the end of it and started to gain fat and overtrain easily. Since going to more volume and training more like an athlete I'm bigger, stronger, a better lifter, have more energy, better conditioning while having more commitments and less free time.

 

[Beau]

Yes we'd all be better off without science. We could still live in caves and starve to death, believing the world is flat and that all things happen by magic or divine intervention.

LOL thats not what i said/meant dude...i was just stating different things work for different people, just because you personally didn't get results or like HIT style training doesn't mean someone else won't. Gotta try new things to see how the body responds IMO see what works best for you

 

[tim290280]

LOL thats not what i said/meant dude...i was just stating different things work for different people, just because you personally didn't get results or like HIT style training doesn't mean someone else won't. Gotta try new things to see how the body responds IMO see what works best for you

By which you are actually stating that science has no value.

If science has no value then you can kiss the massive growth in food production, medicine, surgery, engineering, chemistry, physics and how they have impacted on our lives making it possible to live in this cosy little existence.

And if you actually read my posts you would see that my personal experiences with HIT were good, but I have gotten better results when I actually followed something science had been trying to tell me for ages.

How about you listen to science instead of discrediting it every chance you get.

 

[skindnef]

~Tim290280~
Weilding the sword in the name of science. Taking No prisoners.
Awesome.

Reppd
"you must spread some reputation around before giving ............"

 

[Tunen]

That 'everybody is different' dogma is sooo trivial.

 

[legionarius]

I love dc training and dorian routine

 

[Beau]

By which you are actually stating that science has no value.

If science has no value then you can kiss the massive growth in food production, medicine, surgery, engineering, chemistry, physics and how they have impacted on our lives making it possible to live in this cosy little existence.

And if you actually read my posts you would see that my personal experiences with HIT were good, but I have gotten better results when I actually followed something science had been trying to tell me for ages.

How about you listen to science instead of discrediting it every chance you get.

every chance i get? haha ok your taking shit out of context but whatever...HIT worked for me, its a legit style of training i'll leave it at that

 

[Natzo]

Today I had one of the best Bicep workouts , after leaving the gym and unlock my bike I was thinking how the hell if I trained volume, could have had this workout? I couldn't do one more set! the intensity was of the hook! the PB's dropping here and there ,awesome. It felt like I'm in the right way.

HIT works for some.. it works for me pretty damn well.

 

[power]

Today I had one of the best Bicep workouts , after leaving the gym and unlock my bike I was thinking how the hell if I trained volume, could have had this workout? I couldn't do one more set! the intensity was of the hook! the PB's dropping here and there ,awesome. It felt like I'm in the right way.

HIT works for some.. it works for me pretty damn well.

There is only one way to train if you want to get big, and that's HIT. Congrats on your good workout

 

[tim290280]

Today I had one of the best Bicep workouts , after leaving the gym and unlock my bike I was thinking how the hell if I trained volume, could have had this workout? I couldn't do one more set! the intensity was of the hook! the PB's dropping here and there ,awesome. It felt like I'm in the right way.

HIT works for some.. it works for me pretty damn well.

How the hell did you ride home if you had already trained legs that week? You're going to overtrain your legs

There is only one way to train if you want to get big, and that's HIT. Congrats on your good workout

So explain any athlete to me then. I'd have to say that there are some footy players, wrestlers, BBers, weightlifters, etc who all train every day of the week. Sometimes two or more times a day. They still manage to get big.......

 

[mexiFRO]

yup

 

[Natzo]

Tim you're not serious.. are you?

I ride my bike cause I have no car ! and if I had I would still ride my bike to the gym. it's only like 8 minutes 90% of the way no inclination and I'm warmed up when I get there so..

only benefits!


OH it's good for the environment too!