How Long Do you Wait Between Your PWO Shake & Meal?

[tim290280]

^^ Don't disagree.

I think we would all do better to just actually eat food. Took me a long time to get to like eating food, once I did I completely changed.

 

[youngmusclejock]

^^ Don't disagree.

I think we would all do better to just actually eat food. Took me a long time to get to like eating food, once I did I completely changed.

For PWO right?

If so that's what I've been saying.. Food is the KING!

 

[The_KM]

Thanks for the info IS! 'ppreciate your input.

So I'm saying that the casein slowing the gastric emptying isn't as important if you are consuming a PWO shake and then another meal reasonably quickly that contains meat and vegetables as these will also slow gastric emptying.

I think we agree, just some miscommunication.

I'm probably missing something, but post workout, which is what is being discussed; why are we trying to delay gastric emptying? Especially if taking post workout phosphagen resynthesizers (creatine types). Protein synthesis should be induced as quickly as possible, in turn will follow a wholefood meal.

I personally prefer to mix my PWO shake in milk so that I get some casein that way. Although I don't consume enough carbs PWO, according the stuff I've read its about 88-105g that I need (for an 88kg guy the 105 would be for heavy workloads like footy training for over an hour).

If anything this method is counterproductive. The casein ratio of milk is much to small to make any significant difference. Furthermore, lactose will further delay glycotic sugars, if taken any. The milk sugar (lactose) to protein ratio is not something I'd recommend.

Where are you getting the 100g recommendation from Kev? Have you got the abstract?

It was a generalization. To be more precise:

75-80g for liver glycogen
300-400g for muscle glycogen.

grams = carbs.

Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=u...g+nutrition&dq=understanding+nutrition&pgis=1.
I was hoping there was an e-view available, but this is where I obtained the info.

 

[youngmusclejock]

If you take metformin you'll by pass the liver.. HEHEHEHE..

 

[tim290280]

Looks like a better resource than the one I had read. The one I read was from the NSCA and the author made a couple of fallecious claims but at least referenced the numbers she gave. Looks like I need to up my carbs a fair bit then.

On the reason for slowing gastric emptying: I'm not exactly sure how it all works, but I believe that you get the trigger for protein synthesis immediately but you slow down the digestion rate so that your intestines can fully process the protein aminos. I think that the absorbtion rate for aminos is something like 1.5g/min (not 100% on that, but I've got the paper somewhere) so by slowing gastric emptying down you fully utilise the window.

You're probably right on the lactose, although it is only contributing something in the order of 0.4-0.8g of carbs per 100ml of milk so I'm not sure how large an effect this will be. The casein accounts for something like 20% of the protein in milk which is something like 8-10g per 100ml. So casein is going to be in the order of 1.5-2g, probably not enough to really slow things down. But then again I eat within half to and hour after training anyway.

 

[Ironslave]

Kevin, you're pretty well correct, but it's nit picking. Keep in mind, 1) a glass of milk is still a liquid, so gastic emptying is going to be pretty rapid. 2) digestion will still be occurring. Milk is also very high insulinotropic. It's fine, and IMO, probably good post workout.

Roy BD. Milk: the new sports drink? A Review. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008 Oct 2;5:15.

ABSTRACT: There has been growing interest in the potential use of bovine milk as an exercise beverage, especially during recovery from resistance training and endurance sports. Based on the limited research, milk appears to be an effective post-resistance exercise beverage that results in favourable acute alterations in protein metabolism. Milk consumption acutely increases muscle protein synthesis, leading to an improved net muscle protein balance. Furthermore, when post-exercise milk consumption is combined with resistance training (12 weeks minimum), greater increases in muscle hypertrophy and lean mass have been observed. Although research with milk is limited, there is some evidence to suggest that milk may be an effective post-exercise beverage for endurance activities. Low-fat milk has been shown to be as effective, if not more effective, than commercially available sports drinks as a rehydration beverage. Milk represents a more nutrient dense beverage choice for individuals who partake in strength and endurance activities, compared to traditional sports drinks. Bovine low-fat fluid milk is a safe and effective post exercise beverage for most individuals, except for those who are lactose intolerant. Further research is warranted to better delineate the possible applications and efficacy of bovine milk in the field of sports nutrition.

 

[The_KM]

Looks like a better resource than the one I had read. The one I read was from the NSCA and the author made a couple of fallecious claims but at least referenced the numbers she gave. Looks like I need to up my carbs a fair bit then.

All good, throw up your sources anyway for we can compare and contrast the data.

IS is right, i was probably nit-picking. And to be honest, I'm not positively sure of gastric emptying through amino acid distribution.

Kevin, you're pretty well correct, but it's nit picking. Keep in mind, 1) a glass of milk is still a liquid, so gastic emptying is going to be pretty rapid. 2) digestion will still be occurring. Milk is also very high insulinotropic. It's fine, and IMO, probably good post workout.

Great article, but it doesn't show it's effect on glycogen synthesis. Or maybe it does and I misunderstood. The only reason I know of milk being highly insulinotrophic is because its primary sugar is a disaccharide bound with glucose.

Am I right? That's weird, lol. Because if milk is usable post workout, that throws the theories I've been prescribing for the last 5 months down the drain. But hey, you live and you learn.

Thanks for the help bro.

 

[tim290280]

PM your email addy as I have it as a pdf. Plus I can send a couple of other studies you might find interesting.

 

[allstar]

Well, there is a theory that if you don't take in ALL the EAA's (which include BCAAs) in a 1:1:1:1 etc ratio, that you actually can come with negative protein balance. Your body can't make EAAs, only the NEAAs, so that leaves nine amino acids you HAVE to ingest for your body uses. To make your skeletal muscle protein you still need the other EAAs even if you ingest tons of BCAAs. So if you ingested a ton of BCAA, and your body still needs the other EAAs, you still can't complete protein synthesis, and you sit in a overall negative protein balance till you get those in.

Has any one else heard of this^^?

 

[Duality]

I think I've said this before, just frickin eat! I'd suggest if you're a sucker for the minor details, and one who really wants to do something optimally:

Cottage cheese/yogurt around an hour before a workout.
Half an hour before, 10g leucine
During workout, BCAA brand like Xtend with a scoop of Gatorade.
After workout, whey protein with some dextrose, leucine, creatine.

Go home and eat chicken/pasta.

YES! my goodness you all are overanalyzing the living daylights out of this. just freaking eat.

you know how when a bunch of rich people get together and start talking about all their accolades/financial accomplishments, and while no one would ever admit it, they're trying to impress each other by doing so. don't mean to be mean here but this is what this thread is sounding like. this is a very basic question that deserves a very basic answer. i know you guys like to get uber technical but honestly imo there is one very easy answer to all this; get your meal in about an hour after your shake.

 

[Lionheart]

100g of carbs are needed to restore full muscle glycogen capacity, just a thought. Also, save your money with glutamine, it's ineffective. Good plan though.

Hmm..care to explain why?Funny cause ive noticed better recovery when taking glutamine and it doesnt cost that much either.So i wont even consider givin up on it!

 

[Ironslave]

Great article, but it doesn't show it's effect on glycogen synthesis. Or maybe it does and I misunderstood. The only reason I know of milk being highly insulinotrophic is because its primary sugar is a disaccharide bound with glucose.

Am I right? That's weird, lol. Because if milk is usable post workout, that throws the theories I've been prescribing for the last 5 months down the drain. But hey, you live and you learn.

Thanks for the help bro.

Your theory is correct, but there's a difference between theory and application. Milk does have casein, which slows gastric emptying, yada yada yada. That theory is correct. But, as I mentioned, we are still talking about a liquid.

I don't see why it would impair glycogen synthesis. I'm advocating using milk instead of water, for someone who is in a "bulking" phase.

As far as the insulin action, to my knowledge, the mechanism remains elusive. It's not as clear cut as the glycemic index may seem. Milk and other dairys are often low GI, high on the insulin index. For example, amino acids, particularly leucine, are also able to stimulate a significant insulin release. This is one I have kicking around which theorizes a bit.


Nilsson, M., Stenberg, M., Frid, A. H., Holst, J. J., Björck, I. M. E. Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2004 (Vol. 80) (No. 5) 1246-1253


Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low GI. The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated. A study was conducted to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood sugar, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones (glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1) in healthy subjects. 12 healthy volunteers were served test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose. An equicarbohydrate load of white wheat bread was used as a reference meal. A correlation was found between postprandial insulin responses and early increments in plasma amino acids. The strongest correlations were seen for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. A correlation was also obtained between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations. Reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) than did the bread reference (-62% and -57%, respectively). Whey meal was accompanied by higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%). It is concluded that food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids. Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties. The whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.

Well, there is a theory that if you don't take in ALL the EAA's (which include BCAAs) in a 1:1:1:1 etc ratio, that you actually can come with negative protein balance. Your body can't make EAAs, only the NEAAs, so that leaves nine amino acids you HAVE to ingest for your body uses. To make your skeletal muscle protein you still need the other EAAs even if you ingest tons of BCAAs. So if you ingested a ton of BCAA, and your body still needs the other EAAs, you still can't complete protein synthesis, and you sit in a overall negative protein balance till you get those in.

Has any one else heard of this^^?

I've never heard of it. I'd have to see a reference for it, but on the top of my head I think it's far fetched.

 

[The_KM]

Hmm..care to explain why?Funny cause ive noticed better recovery when taking glutamine and it doesnt cost that much either.So i wont even consider givin up on it!

It is only effective if administered intravenously to patients in a severe catabolic state. PM The Creator for studies I sent him, I just cleared my outbox.

There's far too many other variables to why you're recovery has increased, and this is why the supplement I believe plays a placebo effect. You're not the only one who swears by it.

Your theory is correct, but there's a difference between theory and application. Milk does have casein, which slows gastric emptying, yada yada yada. That theory is correct. But, as I mentioned, we are still talking about a liquid.

I don't see why it would impair glycogen synthesis. I'm advocating using milk instead of water, for someone who is in a "bulking" phase.

As far as the insulin action, to my knowledge, the mechanism remains elusive. It's not as clear cut as the glycemic index may seem. Milk and other dairys are often low GI, high on the insulin index. For example, amino acids, particularly leucine, are also able to stimulate a significant insulin release. This is one I have kicking around which theorizes a bit.

My fault, I was talking in ways of a person's primary carb post workout. I understand what you're saying though. For example, milk may have a low GI but stimulates a high insulin response as well?

Nice study also, thanks.

So do you think milk is effective post workout? Aside from other liquid glucose-bonded carbs? Dextrose powder for example.

 

[The_KM]

My fault, I was talking in ways of a person's primary carb post workout. I understand what you're saying though. For example, milk may have a low GI but stimulates a high insulin response as well?

Nice study also, thanks.

So do you think milk is effective post workout? Aside from other liquid glucose-bonded carbs? Dextrose powder for example.

 

[The_KM]

Lionheart, here are my studies. I've had them saved on my drive for a while now. This should give a basic idea of what I'm talking about:

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.

Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

Sports Science Laboratory, University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 19716, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.

The purpose was to determine if glutamine supplementation would prevent a loss of lean mass in athletes during a 12-day weight reduction program. It was hypothesized that supplementation would spare lean body mass. Subjects (n=18) exercised and dieted to create a 4186kJ·day-1 energy deficit and a 8372 kJ·day-1 energy deficit on days 1-5, days 6-12, respectively. The glutamine (GLN) group (n=9) ingested 0.35 g·kg-1 body mass of glutamine while a placebo was administered to the remaining subjects. Body mass (BM), lean body mass (LBM) and fat mass (FM), were measured at days 0, 6, and 12. GLN and placebo groups both lost significant amounts of BM, LBM and FM. There were no significant differences between groups. The findings indicate little benefit for retention of lean mass with supplementation of glutamine during a short-term weight reduction program.

Glutamine supplementation did not benefit athletes during short-term

So, as you can see the findings conclude it has little, to no effect on trained adults. If you search for other studies on reputable databases I'm certain you can find more to add to this collection.

Hope this helps!

 

[Adam23]

^^^good info about glutamine !!! thanks bro

 

[Duality]

It is only effective if administered intravenously to patients in a severe catabolic state. PM The Creator for studies I sent him, I just cleared my outbox.

There's far too many other variables to why you're recovery has increased, and this is why the supplement I believe plays a placebo effect. You're not the only one who swears by it.



My fault, I was talking in ways of a person's primary carb post workout. I understand what you're saying though. For example, milk may have a low GI but stimulates a high insulin response as well?

Nice study also, thanks.

So do you think milk is effective post workout? Aside from other liquid glucose-bonded carbs? Dextrose powder for example.

wow dude way to make me eat my own words!! (i poked fun at you in my last post ) i would actually be interested to see those studies because i'm with lionheart i have had positive results with glutamine. if i may give you an example; while dieting for my first show i noticed in the final 3 weeks leading up to it that my recovery was lacking quite substantially. usually my once a week split allows me to recover fully between workouts and with the deprived caloric state i was in it wasn't happening. i hadn't used glutamine (at least not by itself, i'm sure some of the supplements i've used have contained it). i used pure glutamine daily at around 7 grams a day in my shakes and i really have to say, it made a big difference. and may i also include that i strongly don't feel like this was a placebo effect as i did nothing different in my training/diet and was able to recover in a weeks time between workouts whereas i wasn't able to before. thoughts?

 

[tim290280]

^^ I might see what I can find as well. I've got a supplement review that I haven't read yet that may have a better overview.

But there are also a lot of variables that you can't take into account with just yourself. Makes it really hard to narrow down cause and effect.

 

[The_KM]

wow dude way to make me eat my own words!! (i poked fun at you in my last post ) i would actually be interested to see those studies because i'm with lionheart i have had positive results with glutamine. if i may give you an example; while dieting for my first show i noticed in the final 3 weeks leading up to it that my recovery was lacking quite substantially. usually my once a week split allows me to recover fully between workouts and with the deprived caloric state i was in it wasn't happening. i hadn't used glutamine (at least not by itself, i'm sure some of the supplements i've used have contained it). i used pure glutamine daily at around 7 grams a day in my shakes and i really have to say, it made a big difference. and may i also include that i strongly don't feel like this was a placebo effect as i did nothing different in my training/diet and was able to recover in a weeks time between workouts whereas i wasn't able to before. thoughts?

Just posted the studies above bro, take a look. I had the same deal happen while dieting for my show, recovery was poor. From what I know, the supplement never exists the stomach, and thus only causes results within the intestines through gastric emptying.

Some swear by it, which is why glutamine is such a highly debatable topic on almost every forum you go on.

 

[Braaq]

Amazing post, KM (as usual) and great point. I never saw the point in supplementing with Glutamine anyways seeing as it the majority of the AA makeup of Whey anyways. But that just proves it right there. Repped