Pope Says Stopping Gays As Important As Saving Rainforest

[Skeptic]

Is the church against IVF? I mean... if these couples can't procreate the 'natural' way, does that mean their children are illegitimate in the eyes of the church, and is them having sex bad in the eyes of the church because their ability to procreate the natural way is obsolete?

I might be splitting hairs, but this is a similar argument :wutyousay:

 

[tim290280]

^^ I think they are against it. Read something in the paper that Rev Nile or Pell or one of those others idiots was waxing on about in their Xmas message.

But I'm not sure if that is the Catholic stance or not. Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't. I actually agree with them about that one. IVF does tend to be chucked on the table as an option for people to get pregnant when people should be addressing the real issues of their infertility.

 

[Skeptic]

^^ I think they are against it. Read something in the paper that Rev Nile or Pell or one of those others idiots was waxing on about in their Xmas message.

But I'm not sure if that is the Catholic stance or not. Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't. I actually agree with them about that one. IVF does tend to be chucked on the table as an option for people to get pregnant when people should be addressing the real issues of their infertility.

My cousins couldn't get pregnant without the aid of IVF. Infertility issues can't always be addressed though...

 

[The Creator]

Hmmm....I'm debating throwing in my 2 cents being a religious man, but I think it's best I refrain.

 

[Skeptic]

Hmmm....I'm debating throwing in my 2 cents being a religious man, but I think it's best I refrain.

We still love ya big guy

 

[Ironslave]

Hmmm....I'm debating throwing in my 2 cents being a religious man, but I think it's best I refrain.

It's been a pretty civil discussion thus far, go for it ...

 

[El Freako]

It's been a pretty civil discussion thus far, go for it ...

I promise not to make any suggestions that Christians should die by fire this time. :carduindisguise

Go nuts Creator!

 

[tim290280]

I promise not to make any suggestions that Christians should fed to the lions this time. :carduindisguise

Fixed





On the IVF thing; I've noticed that a lot of the people that say they "have been trying for ages to have a baby" go in for IVF but when you delve into it they wouldn't have been successfull. For starters a lot of women have been on birth control for several years, men are generally more sedentry and both sexes tend to be overweight. All of these factors would make the level of successfull copulation lower, thus the 3-6months they have been trying is just not long enough to say they are in need of IVF. Fixing heir weight or activity or giving a longer break after birth control would aid in this. Another thing is that my parents generation often talk about trying for kids for a lot longer than now-a-days. Mum once made the comment that they were trying for 1.5yrs when she saw one of those IVF reports on the news with some woman claiming they had been trying for 6 months. My friends were in this category, it was tabled as the option even though she was obviously fertile as she had already had a child.

 

[The Creator]

I must say I am a bit surprised at some of the comments towards religion and towards the pope. I dont associate myself with the catholic religion but I am quite sure that if similar comments were made about other individuals, Ron Paul perhaps (or another leader of personal significance), that there would probably be some serious heat and at the least some discussion about a possible ban. I would ask that that be kept in mind. In regards to the homosexuality, I am not for homosexuality. I believe that it is a sin. I have no argument for this as this is my belief, not my theory to be proved. There will always be argument about religion and topics related to religion but fact of the matter is, an opinion or belief is different from fact that needs scientific evidence to back it up. Suffice it to say, some things you just have to go with your heart on. For example, I consider myself a scientist yet I still cant fathom the possibility that I exist in any way other than by my heavenly father. I cant show you a journal article to back this up, but to me this is what I believe. To think that the love I feel for other people, the relationships I develop (and the unique individual spirit associated with each individual), is the consequence of masses of physical tissue inside me, and that alone, just doesnt click for me. However, I respect this view of others.
I think the natural man thinks too much. The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite meaning behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they were talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as "my or our god is the only true God, and your God is false".
I personally think that mankind could use a bit of enlightening. A wise man once defined this word as "the end of suffering". I believe that the we as humans think too much. Our thoughts are always racing and I think this creates a problem. I like to use the analogy of thinking as a tool. Use it for a certain task and then lay it down. I would say that 80-90 percent of most peoples thinking is not only repetitive and useless, but because of its dysfunctional and often negative nature, much of it is also harmful. If you dont think this is true, try to shut off your thinking sometime. Or better yet, pay attention to it and observe how much of it is negative.
I apologize for my ramble, but it was suggested that I give my 2 cents and I guess I got a little off track. My point is, some things just cant be proven, but if we can find time to clear our mind of thinking, we allow ourselves to feel what it is that we believe.

 

[Ironslave]

I must say I am a bit surprised at some of the comments towards religion and towards the pope. I dont associate myself with the catholic religion but I am quite sure that if similar comments were made about other individuals, Ron Paul perhaps (or another leader of personal significance), that there would probably be some serious heat and at the least some discussion about a possible ban.

I lol'd... it's funny because it's true.

I would ask that that be kept in mind. In regards to the homosexuality, I am not for homosexuality. I believe that it is a sin. I have no argument for this as this is my belief, not my theory to be proved. There will always be argument about religion and topics related to religion but fact of the matter is, an opinion or belief is different from fact that needs scientific evidence to back it up.

Can't argue with one's subjective beliefs. Do you consider it to be a choice though?

I apologize for my ramble, but it was suggested that I give my 2 cents and I guess I got a little off track. My point is, some things just cant be proven, but if we can find time to clear our mind of thinking, we allow ourselves to feel what it is that we believe.

no worries on the ramble, it's nice to have differences of opinion. I might argue on the contrary though, that people in general don't think nearly enough. Tech posted a picture once of a woman holding a sign saying that she "trusted Bush, because Bush trusts God." This is one example, but look at pretty much anything in the world. So many problems come from not thinking. I really like a quote that Henry Hazlitt mentioned once, it was pertaining to "economists", but it could apply to scientists, engineers, teachers, politicians, pretty much anything.

"The bad economist sees only what immediately strikes the eye; the good economist also looks beyond. The bad economist sees only the direct consequences of a proposed course; the good economist looks also at the longer and indirect consequences. The bad economist sees only what the effect of a given policy has been or will be on one particular group; the good economist inquires also what the effect of the policy will be on all groups. "

I'd like to steer this clear of another "does god exist" thread. But, I'd like those with religious connotation to show more tolerance to others with traits/opinions that go against their religion. For example, homosexual sex between two partners does not impact anyone's lives whatsoever.

 

[Zigurd]

It has been proven scientifically that some homosexuals are born that way. I got this info from a journal studied and accepted.

 

[The Creator]

Do I think homosexuality is a choice?
I do. That being said, I think that some individuals are more prone towards it than others. I consider it to be there weakness. Just as some people have a "weakness" towards drugs and alcohol. My belief is that it is a great temptation for some people, and recent acceptance has really contributed towards their falling victim to this temptation. Just as I have the temptation to sleep with numerous women nightly, I feel this is my choice but I make the choice to refrain (most of the time) because I believe it to be a sin.

In regards to the thinking, I believe that people spend too much time thinking about useless things. This is time they could be spent feeling things and enjoying life in a positive way. Likewise, I believe that these useless thoughts have taken the place of useful thinking, as in the case of the lady who voted for Bush just because he believed in god. Like I said, I think thinking is a tool and people use it too much in the wrong activities and not enough in the right activities.

 

[Skeptic]

Fixed





On the IVF thing; I've noticed that a lot of the people that say they "have been trying for ages to have a baby" go in for IVF but when you delve into it they wouldn't have been successfull. For starters a lot of women have been on birth control for several years, men are generally more sedentry and both sexes tend to be overweight. All of these factors would make the level of successfull copulation lower, thus the 3-6months they have been trying is just not long enough to say they are in need of IVF. Fixing heir weight or activity or giving a longer break after birth control would aid in this. Another thing is that my parents generation often talk about trying for kids for a lot longer than now-a-days. Mum once made the comment that they were trying for 1.5yrs when she saw one of those IVF reports on the news with some woman claiming they had been trying for 6 months. My friends were in this category, it was tabled as the option even though she was obviously fertile as she had already had a child.

My cousins were tryin for 2-3 years. No, I agree with what you say, my main point is just about people who have been trying for several years. I agree that a lot of people abuse the process without exhausting the other possibilities.

 

[Braaq]

Do I think homosexuality is a choice?
I do. That being said, I think that some individuals are more prone towards it than others. I consider it to be there weakness. Just as some people have a "weakness" towards drugs and alcohol. My belief is that it is a great temptation for some people, and recent acceptance has really contributed towards their falling victim to this temptation. Just as I have the temptation to sleep with numerous women nightly, I feel this is my choice but I make the choice to refrain (most of the time) because I believe it to be a sin.

In regards to the thinking, I believe that people spend too much time thinking about useless things. This is time they could be spent feeling things and enjoying life in a positive way. Likewise, I believe that these useless thoughts have taken the place of useful thinking, as in the case of the lady who voted for Bush just because he believed in god. Like I said, I think thinking is a tool and people use it too much in the wrong activities and not enough in the right activities.

Anyone, who thinks being a homosexual is a choice shows that they do not understand what it is or has never known someone who is gay. Trust me it is NOT a choice. Maybe for some chick who was burned by too many guys and turned dike, but no man would ever want to go through what they do growing up gay. The feeling of resentment and rejection from friends and most of all family, the ridiculing and all the depression that comes from it before they come to grips and comfort when they accept it. No person would go through this willingly, I have gay people close to me and each one knew when they were kids and it was not an easy life for them growing up while trying to act normal while constantly feeling it isn't right.

 

[The Creator]

Anyone, who thinks being a homosexual is a choice shows that they do not understand what it is or has never known someone who is gay. Trust me it is NOT a choice. Maybe for some chick who was burned by too many guys and turned dike, but no man would ever want to go through what they do growing up gay. The feeling of resentment and rejection from friends and most of all family, the ridiculing and all the depression that comes from it before they come to grips and comfort when they accept it. No person would go through this willingly, I have gay people close to me and each one knew when they were kids and it was not an easy life for them growing up while trying to act normal while constantly feeling it isn't right.

I have friends who are gay and they are good people. I am not saying that they should be burned in hell or anything. What I am saying is that I believe that acts of homosexuality are a choice and I believe it to be wrong. I dont know every homeosexual individual and I sure dont know what goes on in there head. I am not the person to judge these people and I dont know there situations. What I believe is that acts of homosexuality are sins.

 

[Ironslave]

I have friends who are gay and they are good people. I am not saying that they should be burned in hell or anything. What I am saying is that I believe that acts of homosexuality are a choice and I believe it to be wrong. I dont know every homeosexual individual and I sure dont know what goes on in there head. I am not the person to judge these people and I dont know there situations. What I believe is that acts of homosexuality are sins.

Thinking homosexualty is wrong is your right, as it boils down to your moral values, and that can't really be argued. But, what is your basis for considering it to be a "choice"??

I posted a review earlier that discussed this and concluded that being homosexual was a discovery, not a choice. I think that with society becoming more accepting, or at the very least, tolerant of homosexual activity we are seeing perhaps more of it, but I would think this would be mostly due to homosexuals feeling more comfortable to openly express their sexuality, and not an increase in prevalence.

I really haven't seen any credible evidence showing that being a homosexual is a choice, it seems that those who think so are clinging to an archaic notion.

 

[tim290280]

Anyone, who thinks being a homosexual is a choice shows that they do not understand what it is or has never known someone who is gay. Trust me it is NOT a choice. Maybe for some chick who was burned by too many guys and turned dike, but no man would ever want to go through what they do growing up gay. The feeling of resentment and rejection from friends and most of all family, the ridiculing and all the depression that comes from it before they come to grips and comfort when they accept it. No person would go through this willingly, I have gay people close to me and each one knew when they were kids and it was not an easy life for them growing up while trying to act normal while constantly feeling it isn't right.

Although Kinsey's research was flawed it did set the basis that homosexuality is actually a spectrum. So there is a level of choice in it for a proportion of those practicing homosexuality, as most are really bisexual or after sexual gratification.

As for homosexuality or sodomy being a sin; the original reasons this was included in the bible is much like the reasons for not eating pork. Good idea at the time given the spread of disease and healthy living. In a modern context it matters less. So sin under the context of the orignal writings really has to be reconsidered.

On a side note; I studied for a couple of years before receiveing holy communion at school. So while I'm not a scholar on the subject I do have a bit of an understanding of christianity. Still has to be kept in context with science. Nothing wrong with believeing in God or a higher power, just can't throw out science just because eariler peoples wrote about things they didn't understand.

 

[The Creator]

I have no credible evidence that it is a choice. As I said, this is my belief on the subject. Beliefs do not have credible evidence from a scientific stand point like facts do. I have nothing against the individuals who are classified as homosexuals. I consider myself to be an open minded individual, but for the most part, I think the argument about homosexuality is endless due to the fact that it boils down to moral belief.

 

[Ironslave]

I have no credible evidence that it is a choice. As I said, this is my belief on the subject. Beliefs do not have credible evidence from a scientific stand point like facts do. I have nothing against the individuals who are classified as homosexuals. I consider myself to be an open minded individual, but for the most part, I think the argument about homosexuality is endless due to the fact that it boils down to moral belief.

Sure, nobody can argue with your belief that homosexuality is wrong, that is a moral belief. But, there are certain things which are answered by science, and the concept of homosexuality being a choice is one of them. I can't argue with your beliefs of homosexuality being wrong, but I can argue that homosexuality is a choice, because it's not.

So, just throwing this out there for the religious, and perhaps the non religious as well. It's pretty well established that homosexuality is not a choice. With this in mind, why are people born 'gay'? Did God intend them to be born gay?

Hoping to keep this civil as it's been thus far.

 

[The Creator]

^^ I'm sorry for my lack of understanding, but can you update me on evidence that homosexuality is not a choice? I believe that it is a matter of self control more than anything. Everyone has urges, impulses, temptation that they can choose to act on or not act on. Just as some people have urges to execute other sins (if thats the way you look at it) I believe that these urges should be controlled. I cant tell you why God made these people gay if that is the case. My best understanding however would be that these individuals are faced with their own challenges just as the rest of us are. Of course this is just my opinion.