Bible and science contradictory?

[BigBen]

Ben, can you stop jumping at the chance to list your IQ in every religious thread. Being able to know which shape should come next based on a group of patters is meaningless for everything in life. I think pretty much everybody is basically in the same range when it comes to natural "intelligence." Some people are great in one area, and suck in others. In my first year of college I was reading Masters level physiology, yet I failed calculus. I attribute both of these at least 90% due to interest, and not some genetic born intelligence. One subject I loved reading about, the other was something out of Abu Gharib.

I do think you're a bright guy, besides with issues that would go against your faith (ie, the virgin Mary, Jesus' resurrection, you mentioned once a woman got communion which magically turned into blood, and she conveniently happened to have a video camera on to catch this event) but every time someone points out the blatant discrepancies in the bible, it's always our fault how we interpret it. Very annoying.

Please note my response to Glex. The importance of understanding of "what comes next" is important IS. Their is a difference between knowledge and then the persons ability to arrange that knowledge to logically come up with a new idea or understanding other than its face value.

 

[Skeptic]

I just wish there was a way to change all of you, but there isn't. It really makes me sad and distraught that some of you will choose darkness and live eternity in hell rather than accept Jesus as the way, truth, and light. .

Im going to hell anyway... All the fun people are in hell.

 

[Hypocrisy86]

im going to be the dumb one here
and say what i believe.

Obama the anti-christ, and in 2012 the rapture.
im out,

 

[Glex]

It would cue me into an understanding that the bible is complicated and that you can take almost nothing at it's face value.

I have to disagree with you. Reading something and coming to understand it in the manner in which it was meant to be understood is the entire point. How can you correctly uptake any life philosophy without completely embracing yourself in it and fully understanding it in the manner in which it was written.

You can not, b/c you would then lack understanding of what it is that is truly being conveyed to you.

You can no more understand the bible without understanding theology and philosophy than you can understand engineering with out mathematics.

Try reading it next time as something that was meant to control others.

Then try to understand the theology as a method to control people once they started to get collectively smarter.

Tell me, Ben, how am I supposed to interpret something like, say, the fig tree story? Is that just a made up story, or did jesus actually do that? If he did actually wither the tree, why is god a whiny baby? If he didn't, how are we supposed to know, and how are we supposed to trust a book that doesn't explicitly say so; a book that requires years of 'expertise' to understand that it's telling a story here and not there, that has 'clues' that allow us to determine what is meant other than the explicit text so that it really isn't lying to us. Sounds pretty contrived.

 

[lifterdead]

2012 the rapture

That's funny, according to some interpretations of the Mayan calendar, 2012 is the end of the world, too.




What the hell. It's the Kaliyuga, anyways.

 

[Zigurd]

Hahahaha BB, I didn´t even see the vid I posted. I don´t care enough. Just wanted to add something for you guys to argue about pointlessly !

 

[Napol3onator]

Bulkboy, I don't really know what you meant in that post, but if it was rude then you're immature. I take it you are immature. I', serious about trying to help people and teach them the basics of becoming a christian.

 

[Skeptic]

Bulkboy, I don't really know what you meant in that post, but if it was rude then you're immature. I take it you are immature. I', serious about trying to help people and teach them the basics of becoming a christian.

Why? i for one dont want to be a christian.

 

[Bulkboy]

Bulkboy, I don't really know what you meant in that post, but if it was rude then you're immature. I take it you are immature. I', serious about trying to help people and teach them the basics of becoming a christian.

ye, it sure was meant to be rude. if ur gonna preach christ on here for us, then atleast do so in a sensible way instead of coming off as a fucking fanatic.

 

[Napol3onator]

whats wrong with being a fanatic? We are all bodybuilding fanatics. I'm sure you are a fanatic of someone's physique and really go out of your way to talk about it, which is good. I mean if it's what I believe in, I'm not crazy, I just want people to know about it.
Skeptic, no offense, but I didn't make that post just for you, I wanted to make it for anyone that wasn't a christian. Peace.

 

[El Freako]

whats wrong with being a fanatic? We are all bodybuilding fanatics. I'm sure you are a fanatic of someone's physique and really go out of your way to talk about it, which is good. I mean if it's what I believe in, I'm not crazy, I just want people to know about it.
Skeptic, no offense, but I didn't make that post just for you, I wanted to make it for anyone that wasn't a christian. Peace.

That's one of the biggest things that grates me about "certain" christians, the missionaries and evangelists. I don't mind the quiet christian who goes about their faith in their own non-invasive way and doesn't try to get on my case about my atheism. Its in-your-face-christians who shit me. I want to get on with my life without having "the message" shoved down my throat. I live with a practicing christian, she was so quiet about it that up until recently I didn't even realise. When I found out I kept my opinions to myself and toned down my private ridiculing of god-botherers. Her faith and my atheism don't clash. 2 of my best mates are christian, I didn't realise this until just last year because they kept it to themselves.

Your faith or lack of should be your own private decision. Sure you might be influenced by family and friends around you but you shouldn't need to be hounded about it. I think we all live in "christian nations" so its not like we can avoid the topic of god for our entire lives.

I think the point I'm trying to get across is, the next time I get stuck in a fucking elevator with an evangelistic christian I'm going to disembowel him with my house keys.

Its quotes like this full of righteous pity that really make me want to puke.

It really makes me sad and distraught that some of you will choose darkness and live eternity in hell rather than accept Jesus as the way, truth, and light.

And Phil I'm honestly not saying that to be rude to you or any other christians on thsi board. I just really hate it that some people will go out of their way to tell me that they think my life is empty and miserable because I chose not to believe in something that in my opinion is a well meaning fairytale. "Be good and you'll go to heaven" is the same as "be good and Santa will bring you lots of presents" in my mind.

Praise Science.

/end rant.

 

[Tech]

That's one of the biggest things that grates me about "certain" christians, the missionaries and evangelists. I don't mind the quiet christian who goes about their faith in their own non-invasive way and doesn't try to get on my case about my atheism. Its in-your-face-christians who shit me. I want to get on with my life without having "the message" shoved down my throat. I live with a practicing christian, she was so quiet about it that up until recently I didn't even realise. When I found out I kept my opinions to myself and toned down my private ridiculing of god-botherers. Her faith and my atheism don't clash. 2 of my best mates are christian, I didn't realise this until just last year because they kept it to themselves.

Your faith or lack of should be your own private decision. Sure you might be influenced by family and friends around you but you shouldn't need to be hounded about it. I think we all live in "christian nations" so its not like we can avoid the topic of god for our entire lives.

I think the point I'm trying to get across is, the next time I get stuck in a fucking elevator with an evangelistic christian I'm going to disembowel him with my house keys.

Its quotes like this full of righteous pity that really make me want to puke.


And Phil I'm honestly not saying that to be rude to you or any other christians on thsi board. I just really hate it that some people will go out of their way to tell me that they think my life is empty and miserable because I chose not to believe in something that in my opinion is a well meaning fairytale. "Be good and you'll go to heaven" is the same as "be good and Santa will bring you lots of presents" in my mind.

Praise Science.

/end rant.

Amen.

 

[Bulkboy]

whats wrong with being a fanatic? We are all bodybuilding fanatics. I'm sure you are a fanatic of someone's physique and really go out of your way to talk about it, which is good. I mean if it's what I believe in, I'm not crazy, I just want people to know about it.
Skeptic, no offense, but I didn't make that post just for you, I wanted to make it for anyone that wasn't a christian. Peace.

:carduforvip

 

[Napol3onator]

Nah that's cool freako. There's no winning with you guys lol. Bulkboy thinks he's bomb.com for what hes posted..don't really care. Back to the bodybuilding forums, but before I go. I noticed you said something about "be good and go to heaven". Before I quit this thread, just in case you change your mind, freako, just being good will not get you to heaven.

 

[Glex]

^^ + two points for saying bomb.com.

-1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 for evangelizing el freako after that very specific statement about how much he hates it and then patronizing his intelligence by bringing up what it is you think you have to do to get to what you think exists after this life when he clearly already knows and the 'be good' comment was just a simplification for effect.

God.

 

[Pickle]

el freako, nice comparison between going to heaven and getting presents from santa lol.

 

[Skeptic]

whats wrong with being a fanatic? We are all bodybuilding fanatics. I'm sure you are a fanatic of someone's physique and really go out of your way to talk about it, which is good. I mean if it's what I believe in, I'm not crazy, I just want people to know about it.
Skeptic, no offense, but I didn't make that post just for you, I wanted to make it for anyone that wasn't a christian. Peace.

i know it wasnt directed just at me Just dont assume our lives are any less fulfilled than yours because we dont believe in (and i agree) a 'well meaning fairytale' (nice one El Freako).

 

[Duality]

Nah that's cool freako. There's no winning with you guys lol. Bulkboy thinks he's bomb.com for what hes posted..don't really care. Back to the bodybuilding forums, but before I go. I noticed you said something about "be good and go to heaven". Before I quit this thread, just in case you change your mind, freako, just being good will not get you to heaven.

dude you are not making a good arguement for the christians and God believers. your coming off as if it's not your way than it is hell or whatnot and not only is that thought process incorrect, it will make the non-believers even more mocking/unbelieving.

 

[El Freako]

I noticed you said something about "be good and go to heaven". Before I quit this thread, just in case you change your mind, freako, just being good will not get you to heaven.

If I ever change my mind on christianity it'll be the same day that monkeys fly out of my arse backwards doing cartwheels.

 

[frezzy]

By Charlie H. Campbell*

1. Something exists.

That seems pretty simple, right? Can we all agree that this is true? Even the atheist will agree that this is true. This seems to be undeniably true. Anybody who would say that “nothing exists” would have to exist to in order to say that in which case he would be defeating his own statement.

My second premise is this:

2. Nothing does not produce something.

This statement is of course true as well. Think about it. It would be absurd to say that nothing could create or produce something.

Nothing is no-thing. Nothing does not have the power to do anything at all, does it! Even David Hume one of the most zealous skeptics of Christianity ever agreed to the truth of this second premise. He said, “I never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might arise without a cause.” (Feb. 1754).

To propose that nothing could do anything at all sounds utterly foolish. A basic law of physics (and if you ever had a physics class you’ll recall this) is called the Law of Conservation. It states: “From nothing, comes nothing.”

This supports our second premise as well. So if the first two premises are true, that 1. Something exists and 2. Nothing does not produce something, then a rather astounding conclusion logically follows...

3. Something must have always existed.

Why’s that? Okay, well, let’s walk back through this. Something now exists. Nothing does not produce something, then something must have always existed.

Why must something have always existed? To have brought the “something” that now exists (in No.1) into existence. Why? Because premise number two is true (Nothing does not produce something). But the critic asks, “Why does that something have to be eternal? Aren’t you just assuming the eternality of that something that brought into existence the something that now exists (no.1)?"

Not at all. Stay with me on this. There is a reason why that something (no. 3) must be eternal. To say that that something (in premise no. 3) did not always exist would be to say that it was finite. Right?

If that something (in premise no. 3) was finite, that means it had a beginning. If that something had a beginning we are back at our start. How did that something (premise no. 3) begin? Did nothing create something? No, that’s impossible. Nothing can’t do anything.

Anything that begins to exist must have a cause. If we deny this we are saying that nothing produced something from nothing and by nothing. But this is absurd. So we are left with the only other option and that is that something in no. 3 must have always existed.

Do you understand why premise 3 must be true?

Now, there are only two options as to what that “something (No.3) [that] always existed” might be:

A. The universe, or

B. Something outside the universe

The fourth premise in my argument is this:

4. The universe has not always existed.

In 1948, a theory known as The Steady State Theory, was set forth, that proposed that the universe was eternal, that is (see William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, p. 102). It stated that the universe has always been. “If this theory is correct” the critics of Christianity said, “there is no need for a Creator.” Well, the theory sounded good on paper for the atheist, for a while but the scientific evidence against it has since demolished the theory.

Numerous evidences from the field of astronomy now overwhelmingly point to the fact that the universe actually began to exist a finite time ago in an event when all…

--the physical space

--and time

--matter

--and energy

...in the universe came into being.


And that is exactly what the Bible affirms, that the universe had a beginning:

Genesis 1:1
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

Let me share with you just 2 facts of science that deal a fatal deathblow to the theory of an eternal universe. The first blow to this theory that universe is eternal is…

A. THE MOTION OF THE GALAXIES

Prior to the 1920’s, scientists had always assumed that the universe as a whole was stationary. [Of course they acknowledged that there was movement of planets in solar systems, etc.]

But in 1929 an alarming thing happened. An astronomer named Edwin Hubble discovered that the light from distant galaxies appeared to be redder than it should. The startling conclusion to which Hubble was led was that the light is redder because the universe is growing apart; it is expanding! When the source of incoming light is moving away from an object the light that you see is shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. The light of the galaxies was redder because they are moving away from us. But here is the interesting part: Hubble not only showed that the universe is expanding, but that it is expanding the same in all directions. Scientists have concluded that the galaxies in the universe are not stationary but are expanding further and further away from each other from what appears to be some stationary point.

Imagine that I was to draw a bunch of dots on a balloon that represented galaxies and then blow up the balloon. If you were to suck the air back out, or let’s say rewind the film, go back in time—what would happen? The dots would converge, i.e. get closer to one another. The same is true with our universe. If you go back in time scientists say that the stars would converge into a singular space, where they exploded into being:

This explosion or beginning of the universe is often referred to as, you know the name:

“THE BIG BANG." We call it Genesis 1:1!! It’s incredible that the scientific evidence that helps establish Big Bang theory also helps verify what the Christian theist has always believed: That the universe actually had a beginning!!

Genesis 1:1
“In the beginning, God created the heavens..."

A second blow to the theory that the universe is eternal comes from the facts behind...

B. THE SECOND LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS

[The first law says that the actual amount of energy in the universe remains constant—it doesn’t change.]

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, is one of the best, most established laws in all of science. In fact, there is no recorded experiment in the history of science that contradicts it. It states that: the amount of useable energy in any closed system (which the universe is) is decreasing. In other words, the useable energy in the universe is dying out like the batteries in a flashlight.

Scientists acknowledge that the sun can not burn forever, and that even our galaxy itself will one day, if left to itself, burn up and die out. So we reason that if the Second Law of Thermodynamics is true for all closed systems, and it is, then it is true for the universe as a whole. The universe according to the atheist is a gigantic closed system, since to them it is all there is and there is nothing outside it. This means that the universe is currently running out of useable energy.

If it is running out of useable energy, then it cannot be eternal, for a finite amount of energy (no matter how large the quantity.) could never have brought the universe through an eternity of time.

Flashlight Illustration: Let's say you stumbled upon this flashlight and you’re curious how long it has been burning. So you do a little investigation. Through your investigation you discover that the batteries are going down hill. They are running out of energy. You turn to a scientist standing nearby and ask him: “How long do you think the flashlight’s been burning?” Now, what if he was to tell you: “It’s always been on. It’s been lit like this and burning like this forever.”

Hunh? Would you believe that? Of course not. There’s a problem with that isn’t there?

Batteries with a finite amount of energy (seen in the fact that they are steadily running out of energy) could never have kept the light burning for an eternal amount of time. It would have run out of batteries trillions of years ago!! So it is with the universe. The amount of useable energy is steadily decreasing, thus proving it impossible that it has been burning for all eternity. So, it is scientific discoveries like…

1. The Motion of the Galaxies

2. The Second Law of Thermodynamics

(and other discoveries like the background radiation echo discovered by Penzias and Wilson)

...that have blown the Steady State Theory into smithereens.

Now, if my premises are all true:

1. Something exists.

2. Nothing does not produce something.

3. Something must have always existed.

4. The universe has not always existed

...then a conclusion can be validly drawn from these premises.

5. There must be an eternal power beyond the universe that caused the universe to come into existence.

Do you think this is a sound argument thus far? I believe it is! The whole argument could come crashing down, if even just one of the premises could be proven to be false. Causing the argument to crash wouldn’t prove that God doesn’t exist, it would just prove that the argument is not valid. Let’s take it a bit further.

6. Intelligent life exists in the universe.

I take that to be self-evident. This also seems to be undeniable. Anybody who would say that there is not intelligent life in the universe would be uttering an intelligent statement from an intelligent being.

To understand any of this study this far (even if you disagreed with what I was saying) would prove that this sixth premise is true...for it has taken a great degree of intelligence to understand the thousands of combinations of syllables that I have been uttering.

So this premise is undeniably true as well.

Let’s take it further.

7. It takes an intelligent living being to create an intelligent living being.

How could a material, inanimate, unintelligent, unconscious force produce on intelligent living, breathing being? It takes a living, intelligent being to create a living, intelligent being. Non-life does not produce life. You could leave the barren side of a mountain exposed to...

--wind

--rain

--the forces of nature

--chance

--and millions of years of time and you would never get a Mount Rushmore, let alone a living, breathing human being. Why? It takes intelligence. You need intelligent intervention.

It would take great intelligence to create a robot that operates like a human, and even more so, it takes intelligence to create a real human being.


8. Therefore there must be an intelligent, living, eternal power, beyond the universe, that created the universe.

That intelligent, living, eternal power, beyond the universe that created the universe is God.

Now this may sound a little too complex to share with an unbeliever. But that is only because I tried to go through this very carefully. Let me show you how easy and quickly this kind of information can be shared with a person that challenges you about the existence of God.

Skeptic: How do you know that God exists? I don’t understand how you can believe in something that you can’t see.

Christian: Well, let me ask you a couple of questions.

Skeptic: Sure.

Christian: Can we agree that something exists [premise one]?

Skeptic: Yes.

Christian: Can we agree that nothing does not produce something [premise two]?

Skeptic: Let me think about that.

Christian: This should be easy to realize. Nothing can’t do anything. What is nothing? It is no-thing. It can’t eat, breathe, think, move, or act. Nothing is nothing. Even David Hume conceded that it is an absurd proposition to suggest that things arise without a cause.

Skeptic: That makes sense. Yes.

Christian: If something exists, and nothing does not produce something then can we agree that something must have always existed [premise three]?

Skeptic: Hunh?

Christian: Something must have always existed to have brought into being the things that now exist, for as you just agreed: Nothing cannot produce something. Now, there are only two options as to what that something that has always existed might be: The universe or something outside the universe. Well amazingly, today scientists have actually proven that the universe has not always existed [premise four]. The motion of the galaxies, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Background Radiation Echo all point to the fact that the universe began to exist.

If the universe has not always existed, and something must have always existed, then something or someone outside of the universe must have always existed, I propose to you that that person is an intelligent, living, powerful being, i.e. God [conclusion].

Skeptic: Interesting. No one’s ever explained it to me that way.


CONCLUSION

For me it is more reasonable to believe, based on the laws of logic as well as the observable scientific evidence that God exists, rather than to believe what the atheist believes that nothing, times nobody, equals everything we see in the universe.

Throw in the fact that we also have the testimony of our conscience and the revelation of God in the Scriptures and I believe we are standing on solid ground when we affirm:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1)